The Cambridge Satchel Co. was born from a passion for excellence. When Julie and her mum Freda started the company at their kitchen table in Cambridge, they had one goal – to make enough money to provide Julie’s children with an excellent education and a brighter future. Their pursuit of excellence underpins everything they do, as they remain committed to making exceptionally good quality bags that last a lifetime. Bags that can carry a lifetime of learning – of curiosity, creativity and adventure. It’s why they thrive in Cambridge, a city rich in history and culture, but nevertheless ever looking forward, shaping change and driving progress. A beautiful blend of old and new, that’s Cambridge, and it’s in their DNA. In all the brand's bags you’ll find a taste of tradition, brought back to life with style, finesse and fun. Behind every design lies a story waiting to be told. Behind every bag, a story waiting to be written. In 2008 Julie Deane CBE started the company from her kitchen table with just £600 and now the brand is a handmade-in-Britain worldwide phenomenon employing more than 140 people and selling to over 120 countries.
In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Julie Deane, Founder of The Cambridge Satchel Co. about the founding story of the Made in Britain handcrafted leather bags brand. It was at New York Fashion Week when they got a first big break when bloggers were seen at the fashion shows with florescent satchels and The New York Times covered the brand in a story. Our host Peter Brooker and Julie talk about doing things differently to gain brand awareness, when your manufacturer copies your product, taking manufacturing in-house, being the focus of a Google advert, sustainability, and the joys of punting.
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Hello and welcome to another episode of The menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete Brooker. Today I'm talking to Julie Dean CBE. She is the founder of the Cambridge satchel company. She founded that company in 2008 with a seed fund of 600 pounds. And it's a very interesting story. I'll let her tell you all about it. But just a quick insight she's collaborated with prestigious designers and retailers, including Vivienne Westwood, and come to garsons and the Cambridge satchel company has graced catwalks from London to New York, and seen on the likes of Taylor Swift, Emma Stone, Lady Gaga, they all carry the bags, which have also appeared in TV shows, including including girls, The Good Wife, and Gossip Girl. And she's just been awarded the CBE in the Queen's Birthday on his list for 2021 for services to entrepreneurship and manufacturing. And here is Julie to tell her story in her own words. So I founded the Cambridge satchel company 12 years ago now. And it started from well from the kitchen table, literally, with a 600 pound start. And it grew incredibly quickly. We we worked with Conde Garson and Vivienne Westwood we've made small leather goods with the Rolling Stones and just incredibly cool people. And it's yes it's been like a huge roller coaster ride but it's it's been an incredible, incredible journey. And the big thing about it is we've managed to keep it so that everything is made here in the UK. And that's you know, that's been a really important not easy thing, but a big important thing very important. And was this very important for you obviously very early on to set up and maybe you can just talk about the workshops and where they're made. Yeah, so I never intended being somebody who owned their own manufacturing you know, bear in mind, Cambridge satchel started with 600 pounds, you know that it was that's that was the the sort of the seed fund. And I go did the first website myself because I had to, because you know, if you start with 600 pounds, nobody's gonna go just like for you. Yeah, there's your budget blown. Yeah. So yeah, it was it was 600 pounds, and I was determined never ever to take any sort of financing because loans make me stressed, that makes me stressed. But it was set up so that I could send my children to a really good school. That was the big aim. Never set out to be a manufacturer. But I started out with a brilliant manufacturer, small manufacturing hell, who had made sexuals back in the 1970s, you know, sort of back in the day, and but we soon were, the demand had outstripped he could make about 200 to 250 bags a week. So we needed another manufacturer to come on to, he doubled that, and then we needed another one. So we had like four small manufacturers, which then gives you some issues around consistency of product, you know, but But still, you know, I was very loyal to those four manufacturers who brilliant actually lovely people. But then we had a huge moment at New York Fashion Week would have been about what's this about nine years ago, and when I sent out these fluorescent sexuals, and some of the bloggers sat in the in the audience and when the lights came on for the shows the spark joy is wow. And it was great to New York Times said, you know, we were the streetstyle of New York Fashion Week, and all of a sudden, everybody hit my slightly cranky website. And before we knew it, we were 16,000 bags on order, and each of the four manufacturers could only make 200 or 250 bags a week. So that wasn't ideal, was ideal in some ways, but it wasn't ideal in other ways. I've got to ask two questions that how did you come up with that idea because that is a stroke of genius. 10 ad distribute genius I'll take that one. But I mean it's in all of these people in all the fashion shows in all the world to get noticed and to get headlines I mean it's everyone's kind of dream to come I hate to use the word viral but that's kind of what it was I suppose that moment. So yeah, it was before things were viral, right you know. I think when you've got a really small tiny budget, you've got to come up with a different way of doing things so when I started selling bags after after that moment because you know, everybody wanted them and they couldn't have them which made them want them all because I just didn't you know, didn't have enough. But a couple of years later, Urban Outfitters in the US started selling them and it was still really really early days and they were saying well have you got pictures of bags on celebrities? And yeah, I remember saying oh yes yes yes yes I have you know, I'm thinking of God and Photoshop is expensive piece of software, pixel metres seem to do all the same things, you know, for my skill level, it nobody is going to see any difference between what I can do whether I use either of those two things. And so I I sort of using it as a verb, but it isn't Photoshop the bags on to Elvis Presley from Jailhouse Rock scene, you know, a red bag on him. This is black and white garb. And then I thought I put one on King Kong, who's hanging on the top of the Empire State Building, little backpack, cheeky little backpack on him. And then I put one on there's a famous painting, you know, munch, the scream, was that Oh, screaming and he, you know, that figure looks very haunted and miserable. So I thought, oh, a nice little pink bag might just take the anxiety away from that and show that everybody looks better with a circle. And I sent those to them. And so the response was, was amazing because they said that they were so sick of seeing same celebrities being paid just to wear different brands of bags. And and here was something that obviously these people things hadn't worn the bags, but it was something unique, you know, it was something that was novel and and so they actually like those printed them out and stuck them on the wall. So I was really happy with that. And I think that's the thing you have to be a bit different when you're not going to just use agencies and pay celebrities and you know, do do things that everybody else with much deeper pockets is doing. And sometimes the people that do have much deeper pockets don't have that breadth of creativity that you would that you need when you're starting out and you're small. I mean, yeah, I mean, I need to be resourceful. You know, you do need to be creative, otherwise you're, you're not going to get noticed. Yeah, I was gonna refer I've actually been writing about Alexander McQueen today. So I'm just kind of it all up in my head with Alexander McQueen. But I remember seeing his shows that were very early on in the early days down at the coal yard factories, and they were very primitive and very raw, but they were they had all that excitement and energy around them and that was purely around the clothes and then as that kind of transformed and as the money came in, you could see all these great exit exhibitions that were just high budget but still fantastically creative. But at the beginning he had nothing like that. Yeah, yeah, you have to make do with what you got at the beginning and then just kind of flesh it's really encouraging to think that you can still get noticed if you're willing to just do something different, you know that it's not you don't have to have massive investment and you know, big big agencies working for you to try and get in that. It's just nice to think there's there's still room for normal people. Yeah. And how big is the team now doing? Well, you're asking the staff to pandemic which is you know, that's a tricky tricky time. So I'd say our normal team size because you know, obviously shops, closing shops reopening people on furlough, then you know, it's been a really difficult time. But normally our team would be around 100 to 120 people. Okay? Because the because we also have, you know, the people making the bags now because, you know, I didn't ever intend being my own manufacturer, but all it takes is one really dodgy unscrupulous manufacturer and you suddenly realise You just don't want to go through that again. So what happened to me was, my first four were great. But then I had to find another one that would really manufacturing volume here in the UK. So that I could start making a dent on all these orders that are coming in after that fantastic New York Fashion Week moment. And that's when I came across the really unscrupulous one. So sort of buying all of the raw materials, buying all of the cutting things and taking them to the other manufacturers to making sure that there was consistency between It was only after he'd started producing, and he was making more per bag than I was making. But it was, I'd say, less than two months, less than eight weeks after he started manufacturing, that I found out that he was actually using a lot of my raw materials, making knockoff bags and hiding them in the road. So you know, after that, I just thought it's good at the outset to try and decide what you can live with and what you can't live with. And for me, I can't work and I won't work with people I don't trust and after something like this, there's no going back you can never trust that person again. And so you know, I had to go down and take out all of it. Can you imagine imagine how stressful This is, when you've got 10s of 1000s of angry customers wanting their bags, ordering and impatient. And you know that the only manufacturer you have that can produce volume is stealing your leather to make copies of your bags. And as if that isn't enough stress, you're also making bags for Conde Garson for Paris Fashion Week show and you're about to pull the plug on that manufacturer because you can't deal with them anymore. that's you know that's that's a bad position to be in and you know it was a case of I had to go down and get the whole tannery lorry to go down and take all the leather I bought out because I knew I didn't want him to make a single other bag for me ever again. Yeah and he made it really easy because he just can't be turned to me and said yeah, but the thing is you've got you've got all these people waiting for bags and you're just a stupid woman you're manufacturing so what are you going to do? Like a delight? I mean we got to have that guy on the podcast What a wonderful but what do you know so but me anyone you know that's gonna wind someone up so much what am I going to say to that? Oh yes you're right. I'm a stupid woman who doesn't know about manufacturing you're right you just carry on making these with everything that I'm buying for you and you take as many as you like and hide them in your locker across the road that's never gonna happen. So he he is all puffed up with pride walked out the back and then I suddenly thought slight make or break moment here you know he is right in that I don't know anything about manufacturing but he's not taking his business from me I know that and and I also know that he's a pretty horrible person to do that to the person who's his best customer you know and so he's he's pretty awful person and so I just turned to the workforce and said well you know you can carry on working for that person or you can come and work for me directly and make these bags and all but two of them left. Oh wow. Okay, that's good. So we wish they had enough as well enough you know, they'd had enough and but then I remember driving back you know, to to Cambridge after that in my hands a bit wobbly you know, and just sort of going back and confrontation isn't it? Yeah, I know really, it's never easy and thinking okay, pick pick Emily Mac's up from school and you know, try and act like everything's fine but it isn't because now I don't have a manufacturing. I've got all these people wanting bags, and now I've got all these other people that are looking to me to employ them. And I haven't actually got a factory to put them in a shoe. So yeah, that was that was a that was a tricky time. But do you like I'm kind of just going on a tangent here with you'd like to be underestimated in that way where people might assume that you're not the businesswoman that you don't have the acumen or the you know, it's brilliant, isn't it? Because the expectations so low, you're always going to exceed it. Yeah, I guess he couldn't have said anything better to you at that time to spare, you know, it was exactly the right thing to say, you know, I'm not stupid out that I got into Cambridge at 17. You know, and I'm not stupid. And it was just it made me so angry that I just, there's no way that I was I was ever going to, to just let that drop. Yeah, well, like say we need to if he's out there listening, it'd be great to get him on. And the two people that hung around a guy like one of them was his wife. Okay, so that's one. It was the other one promised. Anyway, we'll leave that over there. We'll park that. Julie, tell me a little bit. Now. I guess the next step you have all of these people that you need to find a factory for you need to find the infrastructure for your company. So what was that next step? So the next step, I mean, it was my, my background is in sort of science subjects, I'm quite logical. And logically, if you've got people, you do need a building to put them in. And so that was the The next step was that night after putting Emily and Max to bed, I just sort of settled down with prime location and on Rightmove and went on the commercial tab, and put in the manufacturers postcode, plus three miles, because I thought, you know, hopefully everybody then can just saw what's available, and went down the next day and sort of just gave myself the kind of ultimatum, by five o'clock, I need to have picked one place, I saw five places. And they were horrible places, I mean, horrible, horrible places. Because it's one thing to know that you're going to move workshop locations, if you've got, if you've got months, or maybe a year to plan your move, you know, I've, I've done that I've, I've moved to a better location and thought, Okay, before we move in, we're going to look at the footprint we're going to see where the flow of materials is coming in going out where the compressed airlines are going, you can lay all that out. But when you have to do it, not knowing that, oh, guess Guess what, I'm going to have to start manufacturing tomorrow. Either, you don't know what you're looking for, and you don't have the money put aside to get somewhere fantastic. So you are going to look at pretty grim places and so I saw really grim places in the five places I looked at, and it came down to two because one was sort of like on the first floor and you can't get all the leather up onto the first floor. So that was an easy one to to discount. But I got it down to the last two that seemed equally okay. And, and I thought I need to figure out how to choose between these two. So I know I'll go to the one with the fewest rodent traps. So I decided which wanted to go to how many rather 2323 123 121 so I went for the for the one we were 21 but I now now there's only five which is amazing. But place you know we moved into that place and we got up and running and we were making we were making bags within six weeks, which is incredible, which is incredible. And it was absolutely scrubbed it was spotless and we had to get the city council to put a new front on because the front fell off the factory at one point but but it was it was just like step by step. You know. Just because you haven't done something doesn't mean you can't do it you just need to be very resilient and very focused and resourceful I think and it sounds like this is all kind of worked out for the best in in many ways that now you have a assuming autonomy and you have like this vertical integration to the company now. The other thing is, it means is Now we're in the most fantastic we've got this incredible manufacturing facility, we won UK manufacturer the year beat McLaren, I think the judges were, you know, that was a bit of an error on their part. That one because you visit McLaren is like nothing you've ever seen. It's just out of this world. But our places brilliant is really good. Now, it's inside stuff, just outside Leicester. And it's run by a man who does know everything about manufacturing. So I think that's a big win for us. But the one thing when, when you own your manufacturing, you're never going to be pushed aside by a bigger brand, you know, you're never going to suddenly be told, oh, well, yes, we were going to deliver your product next week. But now it's going to be two weeks later, because we've had this great opportunity for a bigger customer, you know, and, and the other thing is, when you learn to do everything, yourself, you understand your product, you have more of a connection to it. And so we have very few our bags are meant to last a long time, you know, and they're made in a really, really kind of solid way. But if anything does go wrong, we can repair them because we made them in the first place. You know, which, which is a really nice nice thing to have my sexual my I have a 15 inch dark brown, such a which has been so well used now it's that leather is like cloth. It's really softened, it looks it looks so much better, really aged well. But um, I look at that, and it's gonna go for for decades, it'll sort of probably see me off. But if something does go wrong, it can be it can be repaired, not like something, nobody's gonna send something back to China or Bangladesh. If they've made peanuts, it's not gonna happen. So if you're going to buy something, and you wanted to last, it's nice to have it made in the country that you live. I think, Beverly, I think that's, in a way, one of the most charming things about you and your website. Julie, if you don't mind me saying is that it looks like it's a very personal business, because you have, you know, there's two pictures of you, your mom, the workforce on there looks like there's a transparency there. And yes, still employs over 100 people and it's still like the one of the biggest, best successful manufacturing places in the UK. So it kind of balances both of those worlds really, really well, I think, yeah, well, thank you. Because it is, you know, it is a very honest business because we we make, we make bags, we make music bags for the Royal Opera House, you know, we make bags for Prince Charles's Foundation, you know, we'd we aren't, we aren't going to want something that then somebody finds some horrible skeleton that comes out of the cupboard, and it causes embarrassment for everybody, you know, who wants that? And that would be, that'd be really awkward to to have your kids read about some sleazy thing that your family businesses done? You know, I wouldn't do that to them? Well, we were talking offline about your kids reaction to the advert that was on Google Chrome or for Google Chrome. Can you talk a little bit about the advert and the impact that it had on the Google advert? It always sort of makes me laugh. Because after the, the, let's call it an incident with the unscrupulous manufacturer, you know, my, my level of trust was zero, because I didn't see that coming, you know, so I just decided I am I'm just gonna do heads down and, and work and, and, and not really take a chance on working with anybody in in much of a big way. And then all of a sudden, we had this phone call and that somebody saying, Oh, this is great opportunity with this big media company, you're not gonna want to miss out on this. But we need more information about your company, we need to know more background. And I thought no way, you know, no, it's not gonna happen. Just go away. They'd come back and say, No, really, this is a really big thing. You are not going to want to miss this opportunity. And I say, well, you must think I was born yesterday, you know, no, no, I'm keeping my cards to my chest, you know, adjusting no one. That is the way the world and then they sort of said, Look, we'll send you a nondisclosure agreement. And if you sign that, we can tell you what This actually is and and then you can make a decision. So it's okay i printing it out, my mum was sitting next to me in the middle office. And we were looking at this document coming out churning out page after page after page of legal jargon. And she looked at me and she, she said, should Julie Gosh, she said dumb. If this is a joke, they're taking it a bit far, you know? Trouble this trouble. And so we signed it, and I signed it. And I said, Yeah, what, you know, what's it for him? And they said, it's, it's to start in the next or in the Google Chrome advert for the UK. and say, Wow, that's that's big, thick doesn't get much bigger. No, it doesn't. And yet it was like a constant surprise. I went up to, to BBA, the the agency in London it was sort of helping out and walking around, they're just seeing this huge London advertising agency because you know, I'd done everything myself I do my Google AdWords campaigns myself and all this kind of thing. And the good god this is it was BBT Sorry, it's my mistake. And walking around thinking, wow, this is just incredible. And and then I still didn't quite get the scale of what you know what's happening. Obviously, a Google advert is never going to be a tiny thing. But they said we want to film some of it at your home because you know, it started at the kitchen table. And so I remember driving home on the day they were going to do the filming at the house in the afternoon. And we had this sort of like really old old house, it was sort of like on the on the road really lovely little character cottage. And as I was driving down, the whole street had these like, fans and things down there, you know, which usually it was really quiet road. And then, you know, gosh, it looks like when they film, The Christmas carols are kings, it looks a bit like this. And then I looked at the front of the house, and they got all of these sort of like huge sheets across, you know, blacking out all the light from the windows and the front of this cottage was all covered up. I thought wow, you know, this is I wasn't expecting that. I don't know what I was expecting, you know, some, some man standing in the kitchen with his phone or something. But I was I wasn't expecting that. And it was just such an incredible experience. You know, it was really these people so professional, they knew exactly what they would do. Oh my gosh, take after take after take after take for just you know, this is me sitting looking at a screen to and to do that again. I think why? Cuz you know, there's only one way I can look at the screen, but you know, go along with it. And then Emily and Max were, oh, no, they were six and eight when I started the business on it. And it was about two years after after that. And so they were very much part of the story. And they were to be in this, this advert. And I said don't worry, you know, don't worry, it doesn't matter what you wear, does matter what your hair looks like, Don't worry, it's gonna be fine. Nobody's gonna see it. Oh my God, when this advert when they aired It is the first ad break in the X Factor on Saturday night. And we also sat there and just sort of stared at it. Kind of like open mouth. It's like, yeah, nobody's gonna see it. Like 8 million views on YouTube went to see a film in the cinema there it was, I mean, they were literally larger than life. And now I just look at it. It's a good thing. We had no idea how big it was going to be because we'd have been so nervous going in, you know, but I think the nice thing, even the family dog is in there. And it it does look very relaxed, because it was kind of relaxed to say, Oh, this is fun. I mean, I didn't think oh, this is gonna be on ITV at eight o'clock every night for the next three weeks. But it was absolutely incredible. And, you know, Google work and have been so supportive and very kind, you know, to to the brand over the years, but yeah, it was an amazing experience. And then following on from that, did you know, I'm assuming there must have been a little spike in sales the next day or continuously if Yeah, and, and it was a huge huge spike in sales. But then of course, you know, no ad Foot runs forever so when that was off then how do you deal with and this is the big thing you know how do you deal with that level of publicity and then going down but what it does leave you with is real brand awareness which is which is a fantastic thing yeah and i you know i was i was really get glad of having our own manufacturing name because we could scale in a way that if we were doing it and also you know if you're choosing to use offshore third parties to make your stuff then look at it now supply chain problems that people are having now horrible Yeah, but at least in these bags are being made just outside Lester so we can we're not going to wait because they they can't they're on a ship stuck in the Suez Canal we don't have any of that. Was that that kind of dovetails into my next question, actually, God I was gonna ask Where do you source the lever from? Did you have any problems with that during Brexit? We've had problems with everything. But that's how you learn that's how you learn she says trying to be really positive. Because we try wherever we can to have UK tanneries because it's it's kind of carbon footprint wise, it's kind of it's it's good to we really, the UK is where most of our customers are. And so I want this where our jobs need to be we need to be putting as much into the UK economy as we can you know, that's just fair. But we couldn't find enough. There are some colours we do that we couldn't find UK tanneries that do those colours to the specification that we needed. On occasions like that, particularly we will go and use European tanneries. And so sometimes it's the Netherlands or Spain or Italy in the Italian leathers really great. But then the Italian tannery that we were using was in one of the very first places in Italy to be shut down at the stuff that pandemic oh well. It was in one of those. Remember there was like they said oh there are these hotspots in Italy that shut down. It's like oh that's where the tannery is today then so yeah, that was that was one of the the lows was challenges challenging Yeah, every problem has a solution. Exactly. Exactly. It's just sometimes those solutions are harder to find the time and was sustained what people asking you about sustainability and ethically sourcing materials 10 years ago we know not so much you know and when you look at the sort of the so so for me it's always been important because I just think you buy better made things that last a long time you know, I don't want to be buying things that break and you throw them away and and I just I hate that whole thing where no sometimes there was the mad dash and you'd see people going to Primark and some of the other you know really the local place and then a bag would break and people would look at the bag of clothes that other people had spent time making and sourcing that and not even bother to pick it up that's how cheap it is you know that's just wrong that is just wrong and and so it's always been really important fewer things better made that's been kind of like a pillar for us the every one that we work with we always make sure they're in there an ethical place you know we were really kind of careful about that. And the leather that the bags are made from they are all natural hide their their cow. And those hides come from the meat industry. So the meat industry still very much alive in and in the UK and the EU as a big industry, the meat industry and farming livestock. However, those hides weren't being used and otherwise would go into landfill. So that level that's where it is sort of like it This doesn't sound very glamorous. It's a byproduct of the meat industry but that's that's why I say that I think it does sound quite glamorous to a lot of people that don't want to see landfill get even bigger or they want to you know the thing is, then it's really hard. I think that the That is a lot better thing to do. Then, if we were trying to use something that just on the face of it seemed to tick a box, you know, like, Oh, this is vegan leather, it's made from mushrooms or pineapple leaves or it's made halfway around the world and then we've flown it in. And you know that that kind of, if there is a plant alternative in the UK, that would do the job as well and make a product that would last as well. totally open to using that completely. But equally open and keen to stop stuff going into landfill. Or you're doing the Lord's work there, Julie? ferry, I've been reading all about it recently about landfill just going getting bigger and bigger. I mean, it's been going on for years. So this isn't, this isn't a newsflash. But it really is something that I feel. I don't know if it comes with getting older, like I'm getting into my 40s now and I'm just paying attention to it where you feel like you buy something and it has to be an investment piece now because what's the point of just consuming something like yeah, like it's no, it's no joy anymore to just buy something, consume it for a couple of months, and then go out and buy it again. And then that just has an impact later down the road. But anyway, I'm rambling on about that. But that's, that's good to know. Julie, I could talk to you for hours. Thanks so much for taking time out. Yeah, not at all. It's been an absolute pleasure. For me, I can't let you go though, without talking quickly about punting knowing that I love punting so punting for people that don't know Cambridge at all, is one of the best experiences that you can have in any city, if you're lucky. How often do you get the chance? Not enough. But I am hoping to definitely go punting again, before the nice weather leaves it's not a fair weather only activity. There's something just so relaxing about being on a boat that is just gliding along at such a lovely sort of calm pace. You know, it's just such a calming and now, I mean, what they've done with punting. It used to be just sit on a Ponton bring your own crisps or something. But now they've got cocktail pumps that go up and down on the river that you can go next to and, and they'll make your drink and you can just go on or you can have a picnic punt or I'm just I love I love the whole punting thing. Don't have any shares in it. No money was made from my promotion of this show is not sponsored normally. But it's it's fantastic. I really stress also people get the chance to do it, try and experience it in a different view ways like you just mentioned there, bring a picnic or get someone to give you the tour. They're like each bridge that you go under has got a different story like the mathematic bridge, or the bridge that's got a little bit of the stone cut out because someone that made it got smarted there's a bridge that you can fight to the death on legally. But you can find all this out in the in the guided tours, and I know that I think they do it like 364 days of the year. I mean, you can literally just go down pretty much anytime and Yeah, you can. No I love it. And they have blankets as well. Yes, yes, they could you know, life is always better with a blanket. Absolutely. And, and yes, it's a brilliant thing to do. Especially this time. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for entertaining me dearly. Have those wonderful stories, the Cambridge Oxford Cambridge sexual calm is the place that you can go on the website and, and hang out there, look at the products. Have a good time, read the stories, read the heritage. It's a great place to be. In the meantime, thanks for thanks for joining us today. Take care yourself. Thank you. You take care. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye. Well, thank you, Julie. Thank you for listening. Don't forget to check out the website Cambridge sexual.com and also the show notes over at menswear style.co.uk that's where we put all of the other articles pertaining to fashion travel, grooming, etc. And if you do like the show, if you're listening, why not leave us a review. Let us know what you think if you want to come on the show, email us here at info at menswear style.co.uk and until next time