Our favourite clothes are more than the things we throw on every morning. Our treasured pieces have stories attached to them, and memories that were made in them. They can elevate our mood, and make us feel the very best version of ourselves. Kair want them to live on and on. Founder Sally Hughes has spent her career working in fashion, and as the industry tackles its sustainability crisis, she was frustrated that no one was talking about the most impactful thing we could do to help: Buy Less, Wear More. It's really that simple. But it's hard, when the fear of damage and fading often means our favourite clothes are left to linger at the bottom of the laundry basket. And that fear is hardly surprising when the laundry aisles are full of identical, chemical-stuffed detergents that blitz the life out of garments. Our wardrobes deserve better. Kair have reimagined laundry the way it should be. Their products have been formulated to expertly clean the clothes you love, so you can wear them as much as you want, and for as many years as you want to. They’ve elevated the experience with bespoke, premium scents that stay - so you’ll feel great and smell great too.
In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Sally Hughes, Founder of Kair about the founding story of her luxury laundry brand which she started after learning about fabric care to help her clothes last longer and to be kinder to the environment. With her new clothing wash products, she wants to encourage people to buy less and get more wear out of their wardrobes. Our host Peter Brooker and Sally also talk about laundry fear, fabric care, seeking investors, developing fragrance, stand out sustainable brands, and packaging design.
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of The menswear style podcast. I'm your host, Peter Drucker and today I'm going to be speaking to the founder of care Sally Hughes. And care is spelt KI er. And the website is care doc care, KI er dot c a r, e, but we'll put all the links over on the show notes so you'll know where to go. Let me tell you a little bit about care before we bring Sally in care have reimagined laundry the way it should be. Care has been formulated to expertly clean the clothes you love. So you can wear them as much as you want. And for as many years as you want to. They've elevated the experience with their bespoke premium scents that stay for you feel great, and smell great too. And here to tell the story of care, in her own words, is Sally. I'm Sally and I've spent nearly my entire career in the fashion industry. And I guess that's what led me to start care last year and through that time in the industry, but actually more than anything, my time as a consumer, I just really learned about the impact that a great outfit can have on your confidence and on your mood. And care is really here to help you fall in love with your clothes over and over again, can during my career in fashion, I was often wearing garments that were advised to dryclean only, you know, nearly every day. And it was really time consuming, it was expensive to clean them. And they came back smelling of all of the chemicals that were used in the process. So I started to learn about the fabric care and realise that many of the fabrics and the garments that are being advisors, dryclean only could actually be washed. And often at one of the brands that I was working at kind of members of the team would come in twinning. And we had a really, really great discount. So perhaps the fear of ruining something wasn't quite as high as if you kind of spend half your, you know, half your disposable income on it. And I think we kind of gradually got more and more confident about how we could wash it. And so whilst I was still washing them, kind of with gentle specialist detergents that were not easy to find. Even some of the team members would just be throwing it in the drum with their regular kind of insert household name here, detergent. And at that point, then you know, you'd see these two dresses side by side. And you could understand exactly why a brand might put dryclean only on the label. It wasn't that it wasn't washable, but it wasn't washable with a household detergent that was full of quite a toxic chemical concoction. And so really, that was from Mike hair was born was the idea will it it was wrong on so many levels. It's not good for fashion sustainability. It's not good for the customer. It wasn't good for our wallets. And I felt that brands are talking more and more about sustainability. And often what they meant by that was, well, we've made this garment with recycled polyester. And I thought it was a lot more important to actually solve that fashion sustainability problem, not from the supply chain, although clearly that needs solving too. But how do we buy less and wear more. And really, that was sort of the the Genesis so you might think that that means that we're anti fast fashion. But actually, we're not anti affordable garments. I'm sat here about the dress that I'm wearing right now is a 10 year old Zara dress that I bought on the weekend of the 2011 you should have let me know we could have got the sponsors in we could have done but you know, hopefully one day and you know, I've watched this dryclean only dress and the machine carefully for 10 years. And I think I felt that the world didn't need another recycled polyester bikini brand. But what I wanted to do was help brands help their customers make clothing last. So we are you know, a Lux laundry brand. We've reimagined laundry from the inside out, we've started with clothing care, but clothing care, first and foremost, and then thought of how do we improve this experience? And how do we really make our clothing mass? And ultimately, how do we help our community long left their wardrobes interesting. And you're right you can really make or break a garment. With regards to the care of it. I mean, like I'm I'm slowly getting into shirts, Sally in my old age, so like a good shirt like a handmade shirt. And there's so much stuff that goes on with collars and cuffs of shirts and the way that you can care and maybe iron them but then you send them to dry cleaners and then they can just come back smashed to bits, which can be heartbreaking. And then you get other shirts that you can just go like this also cost me a small fortune but I can just put it in the wash and it won't have you know the the effect it might have if you put it in to a stranger's hands for example, and but you're right they don't really go into how like you might have a tiny label and how you treat it but they Also so much concern with how you wash a garment. And how you treat it afterwards. I mean, most of the people that get in touch with me after I might do a YouTube video on a certain garment would be, well, I've had this for six months, how how do I wash it? What does it look like afterwards? I mean, but you think that it would just be a little bit more straightforward A to B than it would be for, you know, end users and consumers to give that information rather than the brands themselves? I didn't really have a question at the end of that. So don't worry. I mean, like, if you if you want to recut that into a question I can certainly can speak is Yeah, speak of the authority separately. I think, firstly, that laundry fear is absolutely real. And I think when I was starting the business, one of the first things that I did was just sit down and talk to a lot of people. And they say, when you're, when you're starting a business, and particularly when you want to find out consumer insight, like Do not tell people what you're doing, because they will tell you, it's like, once they know that you're about to start business, they will tell you, it's a good idea, even if it's a terrible idea. Like you could be launching an electric swimming pool. And they'll be like, yeah, great idea. Go for it. And so, you know, at the start of this journey, I just sat down with people and had a lot of conversations around IQ, tell me how you do your laundry. And there were a couple of things that came up over and over again. One was that it was the number always varied between two and five. But nearly every single person that we spoke to say, hey, I've got three things at the bottom of my laundry basket. And I know that I can wash them, but I'm scared to or I don't know how I need somebody to tell me how to do it. And that laundry fear was so so real. Yeah. And there were stories of literally like not wearing their favourite favourite garments, because they were scared of sort of ruining them. And what would happen afterwards? And this is crazy, like, why aren't you? Why aren't you wearing these, like wonderful things in your wardrobe. But to your point on kind of confusion around care, I think it's something that's so important to us, we really see it, as you know, providing the range of appropriate products is only one part of the job. And there are two other really, really important parts of that role that we're thinking about, just as importantly, is the right formulation. So yes, we've formulated our products, clothing care first. And that's different for the different garments. So, for example, in most of the household detergents they have bleaching agents in and they have optical brighteners. And optical brighteners is basically a trick to make something look white, but actually it's attaching a little blue particle, that that particle itself can sort of break down the coding fibre, but it reflects light. So it makes something that whiter than it is, but it's not actually good for fabric care. And similarly, some of the enzymes that are used to break down sort of natural stains like blood, actually also break down natural clothing fibres. So we've started by stripping water, all of that out. But then for other garments, like activewear, for example, it's actually, you know, those same high performance fabrics that wick away the moisture content in sweat, they can leave behind in the fabric, the bacteria and sweat that causes the stink. So you can have this amazing pair of leggings, or what kind of a performance performance t shirt. And you can you've washed it and it's clean, but yet it sort of 1010 washes 20 washes later that I think is starting to linger. And actually what you need for that is a specialist deep cleaning detergent that targets that that bacteria that causes the sting. And so we've learned a lot about fabric care and what the different types of fabric need. But to your point on advice, so much of it is washing it correctly upon me 90% of the way through this cold. So much of that garment carries about how do you wash it? So how can we advise people well for your wishes, for your wool garments, you need to wash those 20 or 30 degrees and put them on a slow spin cycle, but then you can wash them in the machine. And we'd really recommend for nearly all garments that you're much better off washing them in a mesh laundry bag, because sort of it's combination of machine but also anything like a little grommet on a pair of jeans or a zip that can snag when things are being tumbled around the machine. And if you wash those in a mesh bag that protects them from being damaged in the wash. So we're and we're providing one of those in every single one of our orders because we don't think that we're helping our customers look after things correctly, if we're not helping them also wash correctly. And then thirdly, we're sort of really thinking about what how do we help people learn the things that may be? The advice might be 50 years old now because it's their mother's advice passed on from her mother. And actually it's not necessarily reflective of, of modern knowledge and modern techniques. Frankly, what even a modern washing machine is capable of? And so how do we help educate? Because it's not necessarily something that's taught in schools, and yet can really, really help contribute to that wider fashion sustainability conversation? So how do you products? How do you products work on the garment, Sally, in terms of how do people apply it? And like, physically? How do they engage your product with their garments? Yeah, absolutely. So for the most part, we are no different from laundry detergent and fabric conditioner in terms of how you would use the product, you dose it up, put it into the drum, where where we're different isn't in the house, but in the what's inside. And so a lot of the ingredients that are more problematic for fabric care are the ones that we've removed. And instead, we've used modern plant based surfactants. The cleaning agents in the detergent. And so we've started with, rather than starting with how do we Blitz this grass stain out of a garment? And how do we cater for this common denominator? Which is every possible stain under the sun? We said, How do we start with fabric care for people who really, really care care about their clothes. And actually, the plant based cleaning agents that we're using is so effective that the cleaning performance is just too strong. But without the fabric degradation that comes with some of the older ingredients? How would you get a brand like this off the ground? So you've got the idea? You've got the background? you've you've been in fashion? You've had your head in the weeds, so to speak? And do you go and crowdfund a brand like this? Do you do raise the capital yourself? How did you go about getting it off the ground? Yeah, it's such a good question. And I think it's something that a lot of people sort of don't talk about. Certain shows like Dragon's Den, have helped kind of lift the lift, lift the window, but I'll let you know, my, my girlfriend always chastises me when I don't ask the question, because that's, that's the first question she asks when I get off the call. But I think it's you know, it helps that I had a background in finance. So I was the geek in the fashion industry. And I started I, I read economics at university, I then came into kind of really quite analytical and data driven roles. And I was in the finance and strategy teams at net, a port a. And before that, I then jumped to cross sort of it was at the time that marketing was becoming digitally driven and data driven. And so I jumped out of the finance world and into the digital marketing world and ended up leading our performance marketing team there, and then went to work with some of the leading fashion brands from from Google, and then partnered at Google with the likes of far fetched with matchesfashion. So given me a really good grounding, but I think, then when it still came back to raising capital, it helps that you know, whenever you watch an episode of Dragon's Den, you see the first thing that will get people unstuck is not being able to explain their numbers. And so it helps that I know, I knew how to put a plan together. And I just didn't knew what we would be trying to achieve. But I think where I was incredibly fortunate is i'd also work for some probably the most inspirational founders in the UK in the last 15 years. So my first job was on innocent drinks first ever graduate scheme, and I was still in touch with Richard Reid. And him and David Natalie Massenet, at NetSupport. A with some of the very first people that I spoke to when I was thinking of starting up. And probably both of them. In fact, Richard told me, you know, I'm very biassed, because it's been the best thing that I ever did. But they both had some really, really incredible advice. Neither of them invested. But Richard, Richard had already invested in the laundry brands, he was conflicted. But he basically said, look, I think you're onto something here. I think you could be the fevertree of the detergent world. And whilst we don't position ourselves in that way, it was certainly a confidence yet with somebody saying, yes, you know, I believe in you, I think you could do it. And when I spoke to Natalie, her advice was very similar. She basically said, Look, I actually don't think you're being ambitious enough. I think that you know, you're onto something here. And this could be really, really big. But you know, why you only thinking about the UK? Why aren't you thinking about the sort of on a larger scale? And I was like, You're, you're absolutely right. But I think it's certainly one of the things that's been very eye opening for me, and I think it's important that we have this conversation is last year, and I forget the stat but I think it's that. So female founders now raised 2.1, or 2.2% of venture capital, which was down from an all time high of 2.8%, the year before. That is crazy. But it is I'm absolutely sure related to the fact that there sort of, aren't people talking about this, not people saying, well, this is this is how it's done. And this is how you go about it. And what you do here is that everybody will tell you no, and yes, those first couple of people, it wasn't the right fit, but that's a really important part of the process. It's about finding the people that are the right fit, because investors come in all shapes and sizes. And you know, they come from people who back the very, very earliest ideas, when it's literally just an idea is that this point, it was to me to people who are investing in established businesses. And if you're an early stage idea, speaking to an investor, that's only investing or approaching an investor, that's only investing in businesses that have got a revenue line, you're wasting your time. And so I think what was really helpful, I never worked at super early stage businesses, but I had helped certain other fashion businesses raise capital at later stages, and I was able to speak to speak to the people that I'd worked with there and say, Look, I don't know how I need to speak to, but I'm sure you will know who I should speak to, and can you point me in the right direction? And I sort of tried to leave every conversation with it didn't matter if it was a yes or no. But if every person that I spoke to keep introducing you to one more person or two more people, then that was sort of that that was my kind of getting someone in having conversations. And, you know, I was fortunate, I met some brilliant, brilliant people who understood the industry well, who agreed that it was time for a change in this category. And so we've not publicly announced our funding. My boss, at glossier had a saying that fundraising is not success, it's fuel for success. And I think there's a very heated funding market at the moment, and there's a lot of people screaming about raising money. And I think, for us, we're not, you know, obviously, we were delighted that we've been able to raise the capital to give ourselves a chance to do this. But I think what's more important to us is that we turn that capital into a brand and into a community that helps people fall in love with their clothes over and over again, that keeps more clothes out of landfill, and that makes people feel great. And if people believe in us do that, well, that that's how that's how we get there. And did you have the product already made at this point? It was just the idea. Yeah. So it, so we had or I had, you know, gone away and started working with the laundry specialists, I sort of said, Look, this is what I this is what I've learned, can you validate what I'm, you know, what I'm speaking about. And so we've worked with, you know, specialist detergent chemist, to formulate our product. And to launch our bespoke we, we have the IP for our product that we've developed hand in hand with them. And so at the point that we started to raise capital, I'd obviously done the early part of the formula development. We hadn't, we hadn't finished our scent development, I think that was one of the hardest things to do in a pandemic. So, to this point, we've spoken so much about the clothes, but actually, when I was there, he sort of, I think, I think I'm onto something here, I think I've got an idea. Let me start doing more research. And let me start doing more research. And what became really clear, as well as just how important centres in the category, it was the number one thing that was most important to people about how they wash their clothes. And yet you walk down the laundry aisle and the sense and the laundry, literally were like crystal rain and fuchsia passion and gold Topaz. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, I don't know that but sort of I enjoy wearing you know, that name, name, your luxury fragrance, and sort of certainly the ingredients that might be in luxury fragrance. And so we spent a lot of time actually developing the scent, to be able to give a pay off as well, that really elevated that experience. And so when you open the drum, after you've washed with care, you sort of get this gentle explosion of scent, and when you're drying, it kind of it also kind of gives you a lovely pay off in, in your drying room or in your kitchen or or where you might be drying, and that persists. And, and that bit was much more difficult and took far longer than we expected that it would in the middle of the pandemic because I think in a normal situation, you would be able to develop your sense by literally kind of going into the senate lab and, and trying sort of, you know, 10s, if not hundreds of different sort of tweaks to the combination, sort of in fairly short sequences of time. Whereas in the pandemic, we sort of had to have everything sent out to us, we were testing it remotely sort of giving feedback, sending it back, and then even at the very, very last stages of testing with our community. And we you know, we narrowed it down to eight cents that we thought were goers and we wanted to make sure that the ones that we chose were the most popular and the most appealing. And we couldn't just get people in the room in the middle of the winter lock downs. To do that. We literally had to kind of get samples out to the best part of 100 people individually to individually fill that feedback and sort of chase them for that feedback again, because they weren't in the room with us. And so I think it made the logistics of that development in or it certainly made the logistics of developing In the product with a community much more difficult because we knew that to change the game, we had to involve the community from from day one. And so that was not not straightforward at a time when you couldn't meet people. But I think it was worth the extra effort that we put in place to get there. Well, I love the sound of the smells and the sense that you've got going on with these products, the the wild Juniper, bergamot, cedarwood, Amber, and Iris, it all sounds like you say it's actually a sensor, you'd probably pick up in a fragrance but quite exotic as well. And I think what appeals to this is, I think when you see a garment and it's freshly cleaned, you're relieved if that particular stain or if that garments come out the way you intended it to. So visually, you've got the aesthetic of Oh, that's nice. But everyone knows what it's like to get into some nice bed linen, right. And they know the smell of freshly clean sheets. And that is also a huge part of your sensory perception is just the smell of it. So you, you've kind of you've done both of these, you got the double whammy of a really nice garment that comes out. But you've also welcomed in this nice aroma. And people can engage and experience the product that way as well. And I think that's the part that gives me the most pride as well, because sort of already customers in the first feedback, the thing that people have just been raving about this sort of, there are certain words that keep coming up over and over again. And they're like obsessed and divine. And they're words that have like real levels of passion in them. It's like, Oh, yeah, it was nice. Like, they rarely like, Oh my god, like I've just used the wool wash, and it smells incredible. And they're sort of really, I think, appreciating probably the level of attention to detail that we've put into how do we improve this experience? Because we just don't think sort of as it was that it was working as, as well as it could do in so many ways for the government, but also for the human that's doing the washing? Yeah. Do you now look ahead? I mean, is it too early to look ahead to future products? Maybe like some actual candles or sense that you can do as a kind of side range to this? Or are we just still, you know, focusing on what So now, I mean, for us, it's really, really important that we partner with brands. So we're in the early stages of having conversations with quite a few brands about how do we how do we partner? How do we help them advise their customers on on clothing care? You know, for me, like step one, or Step three, or whatever you want to call it, it's like, how do we replace the dryclean only, even if that's not with wash, you know, with with wash with care, you know, whether that's care as our brand, or just simply the traditional care, we want to help brands be part of the clothing care conversation, and we want brands to recognise that care is just an important, just as important as fabrication and production in the first place. Because the average, throughout the average UK customer or the average UK fashion consumer wears 44% of what's in their wardrobe. And personally, I've always been kind of probably more discerning and sort of had to get myself like to really, really love something before I buy it. And then I'll wear it over and over again and look at my wardrobe. Goodness, I've got nothing to wear. But like we want to help people wear their clothes time and time again, and and to understand how they can look after them to keep them sort of just as they were when they left the shop. Interesting. Sally, what brands out there are doing well in terms of the sustainability and the aftercare. And I mean, like brands, like Patagonia, for example, I think is spearheading this kind of movement. Are there any others out there that are doing the right things making the right noises in this regard? Yeah, no, it's it's such a good question. And actually probably a couple of my favourite brands in that respect. There's a menswear brand called the strange term I'm sure you'll be familiar with. And their concept is all around the cap, capture less capture wardrobe and like with less, do more. It's sort of, I think, a very similar ethos to our own sort of, by lesson where more and similarly on the women's side, there's a brand called me and M, who again, have really several, how do we make garments that are timeless and that I really, really functional, but also in the vast majority of their garments are actually washable. And so they're thinking not just about the garment, and not just about the fabric and not just about the design. But how does this fit into the person's life? And I think the minute that you start design from the place of Where is this? Like, where is this customer going? Where is she going to wear it to? And at my last brand, Rick, so I sort of always remember the design founder Orla, would you say, Where is this customer going to wear this garment because the minute that you as a designer of visualising how that garments going to be worn in your thinking will happen. You're far more likely to be designing something that stands the test of time and I think that's a great, great jumping off point. Interesting. Well, Sally, congratulations. The brand looks fantastic from what I've seen on the website, the look great as well, did you have a hand in the design of the bowls? We we did. And again, you know, it was something that's really important. We've just talked about sustainability. And probably the one thing that I didn't say was that actually like, it's not an option anymore about whether or not you're sustainable. It's table stakes. And the first thing that I saw when we went looked at the laundry category was that it was a category that was literally full of heavy duty single use plastic, even the the quote, unquote, eco brands were housed in single use plastic. And it just seemed like madness to me. And so, again, we did a lot of research with the very early days, we looked at paper bottles, and although that technology isn't quite there yet, I think, is there is an argument, I think sort of this will improve over time. And I really, really hope the technology gets there. But right now, even a paper bottle is actually still kind of a pulp with a plastic sheath inside it, that then makes it much more difficult to recycle. And so isn't necessarily as good as it says on the tin. And so what we've done is we've used a glass bottle, that is an infinitely recyclable material, and it's refillable, as well. And so that sort of them are refills, they are plastic, but they are 76% less plastic than the alternative than the equivalent of putting it in that plastic bottle. And I think we've taken the view that in as much as talking about sustainability, you know, the most sustainable garment that you can buy is the one that's already in your wardrobe. And the most sustainable thing you can do is not to consume at all. But if you are going to consume, how do you consume as responsibly as you possibly can do. And we believe that that combination of the glass bottle plus the refills is the most responsible solution that we can get right now. Interesting. Yeah, the I was just thinking about dry cleaners, and how even when you get back something from the dry cleaner, it comes in a plastic wrap, it comes with a hanger that lasts all of five minutes, but you have to twist it up. And then that will split the bin bag, and then there's crap. It's a weird kind of relationship that people have with dry cleaners where they feel like this is the only safe place you can take something that you're emotionally involved with. And then every time you take it there, the experience is horrible. But yeah, you just go I'm not going back there again, I'm going to take I'm going to have another horrible experience at another dry cleaners. And we didn't talk about it because we have a both product now. But also, you know, we're working on things for the future kind of wink wink, you know, to help you break up with your your dry cleaners. But firstly, you know, in as much as we're an orangey brand, we also want to be responsible. And there are times that actually the right advice is to say this garment doesn't need washing, it's not dirty, it can be freshened up, and actually, you don't need to wash it and that will in turn help extend its life. And so alongside our our washes and our signature washes and our delicates and our active wear washes, we're also producing, we've called the productive finishing spray, but it's actually really quite multipurpose because it can give a scent boost after the wash but it also can freshen up garments between washes and and help release creases. And again, that's a product that sort of you know, you get like 150 uses out that bottle and if that saves you and so you know you're on the go and I particularly this week with overheats, kind of you can give it a little freshen up in a spritz between washes and just kind of prolong the life and reduce the number of times you're actually putting up something in the machine as well. Yeah, I think everyone has this idea of why if they've washed if they've worn it once and they've just got a mild sweat on the go. Then instantly that's into the laundry right where it doesn't always have to be the case. I mean, it's probably the most hygienic thing to do but there's always other ways of getting more ways out of a garment than just literally putting it in the wash because it's seen a bit of sun and don't get me wrong like with your active wearing like with your your your sweaty stuff like we recommend you watch that every time you know there are there are certainly times when you you've not been in the hot 30 degree London, London Tropicana that you refreshing that will do the job. I'll have it on the record, I always fold my pants inside out after 10k you know, just just to really get that but then after 20 it does go straight in the bush. That's so good to hear. Thank you. I digress. Sorry. Thanks so much for coming on and walking us through the brand, the brand care, k ay ay er, Doc care. And we'll have all the links and everything else over on the website on the show notes. And make sure you're checking out all the other wonderful products and also the website as well how it's it's wonderfully laid out. Did you have to do that yourself? Or did you employ a new team? We we've worked with some incredible partners, but actually sort of they were such good partners. It really felt like there were an extended part of our own team and, and on the side we've been the amount of skills that I've learned over the past year I think anybody think of going down the founder journey You will learn things that you never even knew. And I'm now an expert in flutes of cardboards that we can safely show how glass bottles. I definitely won't. I won't, I won't digress, but there is a whole, like, there's a whole rabbit hole that you can go down if you want to learn about cardboard that 18 months ago was new to me. We just ordered six flutes. Well, they both those flutes that we ordered those champagne glasses. Yeah, five of them turned out one of them broke. And then the next two weeks is spent back and forth with their company saying, Well, what do we do with this broken, but would you replace it? And their automated bot system is just coming back and going, what do you want us to do? Like, well, why? Why are we even you even asking that just said the fleet in this sense is like if you have corrugated cardboard, there are literally like different widths of corrugate and different combinations of corrugate. And the wave in the corridor is called the fleet. learn something new. Oh, my God, you need to get hold of this. I need to get in touch. We'll put you in touch with the guys that we're dealing with. They're a nightmare. Anyway, Sally, thanks so much for your time. I'll let you get back and enjoy the rest of the sun for the evening. But in the meantime, care, don't care. It's a place to go and make sure you're dropping by and making your wardrobe bit more sustainable. Okay, until next time. Thanks, Sally. Thanks so much, Pete. My pleasure. Thank you, Sally. Well, I could have spoken to her for ages. In fact I did. After I hung up the phone. We carried it on and on into the night we spoke. Anyway, Sally was a great guest. Thank you, Sally for joining us. Thank you for listening. Once again, make sure you're checking out the website, care, k IR care, CA r e and have a look at those wonderful products and also check out the show notes over at menswear. style.co.uk Follow us on social at menswear style. keep updated when we post new podcasts articles, what have you. And if you want to be a guest on the show Tell us about your brand has about your journey. Why not email us here at info at men's wear style dot code at UK. Okay, thanks for listening. Until next time,