Menswear Style Podcast

Phil Vickery, Founder of Raging Bull

October 07, 2020 Menswear Style Episode 85
Menswear Style Podcast
Phil Vickery, Founder of Raging Bull
Chapters
Menswear Style Podcast
Phil Vickery, Founder of Raging Bull
Oct 07, 2020 Episode 85
Menswear Style

The Raging Bull story began back in 2003 when England rugby player and World Cup winner Phil Vickery came up with the idea of a clothing brand whilst sitting around his kitchen table with friends. Nicknamed the Raging Bull by Sir Clive Woodward after his rampaging style of play, he had the perfect brand name for his new sportswear company. The embryonic company started off supplying team kit to rugby clubs and the quality and service meant its reputation grew fast. Meantime Phil concentrated on his stellar rugby career which led to him captaining his country at the 2007 World Cup and a British & Irish Lions tour to South Africa. It was during 2007 that Phil decided to branch out into leisurewear as a sensible step in growing the brand. He appointed Shannon Mercer as MD who bought a wealth of experience from the retail world. The leisurewear collection started with a core of rugby inspired tops and T-shirts which all reflected the heritage of the sport whilst retaining an easy to wear wide appeal. 

In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Raging Bull Founder Phil Vickery about when he first found rugby at a young age, his sporting achievements, and how his lifestyle clothing brand Raging Bull was born. Phil thrives on being the underdog and finds motivation when people tell him it cannot be done. Our host Peter Brooker and Phil also chat about what it's like starting a business in the fashion world, the importance of growing at your own pace, celebrating men of all shapes and sizes, and how standalone stores, retail partners and eCommerce sales all play their part in the recipe for success.

Whilst we have your attention, be sure to sign up to our daily MenswearStyle newsletter here. We promise to only send you the good stuff.

Show Notes Transcript

The Raging Bull story began back in 2003 when England rugby player and World Cup winner Phil Vickery came up with the idea of a clothing brand whilst sitting around his kitchen table with friends. Nicknamed the Raging Bull by Sir Clive Woodward after his rampaging style of play, he had the perfect brand name for his new sportswear company. The embryonic company started off supplying team kit to rugby clubs and the quality and service meant its reputation grew fast. Meantime Phil concentrated on his stellar rugby career which led to him captaining his country at the 2007 World Cup and a British & Irish Lions tour to South Africa. It was during 2007 that Phil decided to branch out into leisurewear as a sensible step in growing the brand. He appointed Shannon Mercer as MD who bought a wealth of experience from the retail world. The leisurewear collection started with a core of rugby inspired tops and T-shirts which all reflected the heritage of the sport whilst retaining an easy to wear wide appeal. 

In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Raging Bull Founder Phil Vickery about when he first found rugby at a young age, his sporting achievements, and how his lifestyle clothing brand Raging Bull was born. Phil thrives on being the underdog and finds motivation when people tell him it cannot be done. Our host Peter Brooker and Phil also chat about what it's like starting a business in the fashion world, the importance of growing at your own pace, celebrating men of all shapes and sizes, and how standalone stores, retail partners and eCommerce sales all play their part in the recipe for success.

Whilst we have your attention, be sure to sign up to our daily MenswearStyle newsletter here. We promise to only send you the good stuff.

Unknown:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the mentor style podcast. I'm your host, Peter Drucker. On this episode, I'm going to talk to Phil Vickery MBE. He is the founder of Raging Bull, who peel off a little info from their site here which you can find by the way raging bull.co.uk men's and women's casual clothing and sportswear brought to you by rugby legend Phil Vickery, the raging bull, a quality British brand with a unique rugby heritage available at house afrasia, Debenhams and online for all the latest news offers and new arrivals visit www raging bull.co.uk. All right. So that interview were filled COMM And I really enjoyed it, you might be pleased to know that Phil does most if not all the talking on this one is very open. And as we allude to in the interview about his time on master chef, which he won by the way, it's not always what you see is what you get. There's a very tender side to fill. And I think you'll appreciate how deep we get on this one. But before we get to Phil, don't forget to check out the show notes at menswear style. Men's Style dot coat UK is the place to go and on the social app men's wear style all the latest fashion news we even have a competition running where you can win a voucher to spend 250 pounds at Raging Bull. So that is an absolute must for you to check out. And if you want to tell us about your brand and your journey you want to be on the show you can email us here at info at menswear style dot code at UK Okay. Well, alright, let's get to it. This is a good one. I hope you enjoy it. Here is that interview with Phil Vickery MBE, founder of Raging Bull. Well, it's my great pleasure to introduce Phil Vickery MBE to the podcast, founder of Raging Bull. How you doing today? Phil? I'm very well, thank you. Not bad at all. We're down here in glorious Gloucestershire. So there's a lot worse places I could be. Yeah, absolutely. I feel perhaps For the uninitiated, perhaps the thumbnail sketch of you who it is and what it is you do? That's a very easy question. I'm not quite sure that the answer is quite so quick and simple, but I I'm probably best known for playing rugby for England. I played 73 times for my country, and play three Rugby World Cups. I became a Rugby World Cup winner in 2003 I captained England, England's the final in 2007, which we lost, which is a shame. British and Irish Lions played 11 years of rugby at Gloucester rugby and then played five years at London was Yeah, so that was my life there I founded a brand the sports brand originally back in what would have been 2001 the initial ideas of it launched properly 2003 called Raging Bull, because that was my nickname on the on the rugby field. And that actually started for when I first sort of broke on the scene. So shall we say from that first team rugby member Gloucester to suddenly being set down a it was I think it was an England select 15 and I was selected to play against the New Zealand touring team. And the guy who was opposite me was a guy called Mark Allen and they called him the ball because he was from Taranaki and a bit of a tough a tough boy from from from from New Zealand. And the question was asked to Sir Clive Woodward that is nine highs, the young Cornish boys I originally grew up on the family farm down in Cornwall, as a farmer boy want to get on against the ball and he said we got our own bow the raging bull. And to cut a long story short as always pretty lively. A little bit of a Springer Spaniel never never shy of taking a step forward. incredibly proud of where I came from and then the raging bull sort of stuck from there and the way I played and then I decided to leading on to your question about Raging Bull man my brand which I started and now we you know we retail up and down the country with our key partners online. Alright, let's so it's kind of don't really know if it answers your question. It kind of unknown for a few things. But then of course I want I want celebrity Master Chef as well and probably of all things people probably know me best or no, actually the interesting one about Master chefs are so to take it back. I know I'm not letting you ask any questions. But the interesting one when I did the master chef, I think people's perception of me is Phil Vickery, Raging Bull, you know, blood, sweat and tears, you know, I've got a fight to death tattooed on my arm and British Bulldog here and prior Cornish farmer, gone get after it passionate. And suddenly, on the Mastership, they saw, probably me for what might like my family or friends seeing Yeah, I'm actually quite quietly spoken on a bit of a gentle giant. And then suddenly, you see this great big Coke, kind of playing around with food and making delicate dishes and having real and I think the lovely thing is people fell in love with me on the show for because they saw me as me. And actually, I was allowed to be me too. And I'm incredibly passionate about food because the farmer in me growing up family farm farming, food, rugby, very strong connection from the rural communities with with rugby and sports. So it's kind of a real passion of mine. And I think, to lead into talking about Raging Bull. And you know why I think one of my biggest frustrations, being a bigger guy was, I used to have to go to the shop, and I, and I couldn't, I just could not look at brands, brands meant nothing to me, I had the first thing I looked at, when I went into the store, if you picture it now, it was going into the store, and all I had to look at was waist size. Because it wasn't 38. But it didn't matter what the brand was, it had no it had no bearing no meaning to me. And I think that was a frustration of mine. Why because I don't consider myself to be, you know, a weirdo or, you know, a freaky, freaky person, or freaky size on big but I'm not like, you know, silly or anything. So, I kind of went about trying to change the mentality of it. And also, just because I'm big, I don't have to wear you know, great big, you know, like bedsheets which aren't made very well and got no tailoring at all. So I was a little bit of a mission. I'm not an angry man with all my time, but sometimes by kind of my mission was to want to dress people, but make people feel valued with a good product, which has been made well, which has been thought about. I mean, we're not high fashion, we're not fashion, we're, you know, life. We're a lifestyle brand. But just because we're lifestyle doesn't mean we have to be you know, a poor brand or, or something, which is not offering value for money. I mean, we're, we're challenger brand, I mean, you know, we Sennheiser phrase with Tommy and Gant and those guys are all amazing brands, and we, we sit underneath, I think we challenge certainly the bigger brands as far as quality, and what we're about and the price point, which I think is giving people real value. And for me, that is what I'm about, you know, that's what, that's what I've tried to build the business on. And also, you know, to grow a lot organically, you know, I haven't had massive chequebooks or gazillions of pounds of marketing it's been very much slowly slowly slowly and building and actually taking people with me and learning and got such an amazing you know, fan base and people you know, customers are just very, very loyal bunch and I think if you keep if I had to say one little critique perhaps of some other people who may be struggling and have been struggling for a while, listen to your customers girls and boys value your customers make them understand what it is you're you're trying to do. Because you're listening to what they're doing. You're taking them with you you're not you're not talking about them you're talking with them and planning with them and listening. You know, customer service we talked about you know, COVID now has impacted the business it's been what's been dreadful, you know, it's not me sitting here and saying anything different. It has been dreadful, but actually what what has COVID thrown out for me as the founder of the business I mean, I'm not day to day I'm on email I see what's going on and know what's going on on pot a strategy. I go in and I can be bad cop, good cop, so a bit of light and shade and give some to the job sometimes when you know things get a little bit stale. But what it has thrown up this whole kobus is to meet as your people the value in the people, the girls and boys within your business and finding out who those characters or and you see I get really passionate about this because it's a bit the same as being on the rugby field in that teams. To what you can sit in the meetings in front of the coaches and from the bosses and you can look amazing. And you can tick all the boxes, and you can have your hair done, you can look super small and everyone thinks you're brilliant. But now we've crossed over the whitewash. And you know what the weather's not great. The winds blowing a bit, and there's a bit of as a sleet snow storm just come in, and it's coming in sideways. And it's very cold, and it's very bitter. And suddenly your game plan has been completely turned upside down. And it's a knife so I'm, I'm talking with my rugby head on but thinking about my business, who's digging in here? And who's really showing their true colours. What does that badge mean to you? What does this region go? What What do the people around you mean? That you see I know a deep soul. But that has meant an awful lot to me. And I find that a really interesting process. And I've enjoyed I've got some of the most amazing people going back to what we were talking about before about this thing about not being perfect. It's not about trying to be perfect. It's about finding good people who are doing things for the right reasons with the right attitude in junior war. I have got into those girls and boys in the business and I have never ever been prouder of my team at Raging Bull and my brand x i know i haven't answered any single question. I think the one that I had written down everyone thinks Listen, I was just dialling back to when you when you launch the brand Raging Bull when I looked it up online also the brand by the way raging bull.co. UK how how was the initial steps like the design process even getting the name so imagine Raging Bull was a domain name must have been as wasn't available. I had some some issues from some some bigger corporates that might sound a little bit like Raging Bull, when I become got slightly better known became a problem that made life a bit difficult for me, but I stood my ground and everything. It's not a made up story. I haven't spent a million quid on trying to make something up this happened. And so that was fine. But I think initially it's scary. You start your own brand and it's like, oh, you know, it's a bit like when you start playing rugby, you want to be known as what you do you want to be like, don't be like anybody going to want to be like us. This is what we're buying. This is obviously the sports wear side of things and being involved in rugby was a natural one. But then the realisation very early on. If you could use Imagine if you're sad if you go to sports grounds or matches or whatever it is, you're interested when you sit in the stand, have a look around. And particularly at rugby, you've got the whole cross section where you've got you've got young young youngsters you've got brothers sisters, aunties, uncles, grandparents, families, always die goes down. There's a whole cross section of everyone who just love You know, I love rugby. I'm passionate about rugby, but also there's more to life as well then rugby I just love the fact that a sport brings so many different people together in just wanting to celebrate a game I think my ambition as far as brand and then it was kind of what I need to be this these are my people I thought I talked about those my people I don't mean that, you know, I said you know my people, Phil's people. And then the scary bit about going yeah, lifestyle, you know, how can we and also sticking to one of our my big things is installation. So we got to six XL across the range. And I'm not six XLR on this one, I'm actually xo. But my point is I want to make sure I keep looking after the roots in going back to the fundamental basics and why this started was to make sure I serve my people. And that's all shapes and sizes. And you know what? Whether you like it or dislike it, I celebrate that. So how do we look after them? And I think initially like like like everyone, you have a you have another of people who go well done for us also on with your buddy, I'm going to support you and well, anything I can do please let me know. And then you always get the element of people actually, you know, can't we always want you to fail. And you know, don't do this can't do that. Well remember being told so I grew up in a little tiny farm in Cal Compton in North Cornwall when nothing happens down the end of a farm lane, which is a mile long. I remember falling in love with rugby. And another have been 1314 years old went to a comprehensive school and all I kept saying people kept telling me Oh, you'll never do anything for big you don't be messing around with that silly old game. You know what's all this about? He kept up club encouraged me And welcomed me and made me feel valued. And I was like, Wow, this is amazing. I remember going on my school's trials and going up against all the big schools and like all the posh schools you know, there's beauty haven comprehensive never look brilliant on the old on the old thing, you know, and I got actually paid for England under 16 level, which is unusual for that age group. And then I moved on and then I play for England Colts, and I paid them the 20 ones and then I did. So don't Don't tell me you can't do something because you bloody well can. And I think I use that mentality, particularly with my business starting with with Raging Bull, because you can do it. And people said you couldn't do it. I remember, I remember going to see people with, you know, a storyboard. And you know, this what we're doing and half it wasn't true. But as in we didn't have half the amount of care or the excuse and shirts, but we kept going and kept going and slowly independence built up and then remember going to see House of Fraser, and for about six years, go away, come back and have your story, come back come back, then you get given an opportunity. And then one store turns 2369 and that that that happened and yes, blood sweat and tears and lots of ups and downs and highs and lows, but you can you can do it you can achieve. And even owner knows the right time to say but even now, I mean, yes, you know, I that stores actually coming back online, and then really performing for second the high street and then looking at what's happening in particular house of Fraser, you know, we're back trading again, and numbers are coming through, or online presence, although we're not huge online numbers have been really, really good. And actually now we're beginning to start talking about what the no illusions to how difficult the world is out there. But actually, now we're beginning in the business already talking about things which we completely can't. So looking at our innovation or looking at, you know, which next level is how we're going to layer on whether that's innovation through garments and looking at new styles and just how we're adding value to what we've already got. But at the same time looking for new opportunities. And, you know, going back to that ambitious, you know, Phil, Raging Bull can do attitude. Because actually, you know, there are opportunities out there. Now, the high street and the world is changing significantly. We know that it should be really be shocked at all there any rule along you know, signs that weren't there before. No, it's just been accelerated, which is scary. But it's just I go back to the basics of it just being positive about it, and actually embracing that and going with it. And I want to be at the forefront of whatever the future holds. Yeah. So just going back to what you were saying about how people constantly or we're constantly saying, look, this can't be done. This is going to be tricky, giving you all these red flags. Yeah, it sounds like you You really thrive on being the underdog. And do you feel like that's, this comes from a place where if people were around you saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, this looks great. This definitely can be done. Yeah, go for it. And you feel like it almost has the reverse effect. if everybody's mollycoddling you and telling you great things, as opposed to saying, Now this interview, pal. Yeah, I just think I just think there's a there's an age it's not I tend to I am very, I am, you know, it's in me that I, I've always been very, right going get it because I think potentially where I grew up, nothing happens by luck. Because it just get forgotten about, you know, you just you've got to go and find it because it's not there. And I think you've got to have that drive within you. Now with that drive comes the downside. So, you know, the emotion that you know, as I'm so proud, I get so into it, that it hurts, you know, and when things hurt is it you know, does get you but that's that's you know, that's a positive that's a that's a positive you know, and I'm not saying my ways the right way, but if it you know, if your job doesn't really mean anything to you, you're just ticking the boxes and I strongly advise you to go and find something which does like your fire because I think if you took that away from you, or took that away from me what what you're left with on the job, I'm just I'm just a nobody. And I think one of the greatest things when we've gone back to my rugby career, if you took the gun back to my thing about being perfect. If I was perfect, you've lost half of me before you can get going because I'm edgy. I'm not afraid to call it. I will. I'm not afraid of being naughty, you know, so I'm not afraid of getting stuck in or doing things perhaps you shouldn't do and you know, no one no one would get past me. So it's it that's And that desire and that will and that passion? Yes. I've learned to mould it. Yes, I've learned to hold my tongue. Yes, I've learned to let people speak and to take people's view on board. No one's got a bigger heart than me sunshine. Let me tell you a bit. It's a great big Thumper in there. And he gets hurt sometimes, but I'm, I'm on giving on loving. And I think people, people feel that. And then if people feel an affiliation, or feel an authentic real person, then they're with you, and you've got a chance, you know, you've got a chance. And I've met some amazing people through the years. But you know, it's a classic, I wish, I wish I could have met some of the people I know now 10 or 12 years ago. But then actually, that's a silly thing to say, because you wouldn't have done what you did. But then you wouldn't be up don't think I'd be where I am today. You know what I mean? You can't You can't be like that. I just, I'm just lucky I and, and the retail world, you know it for all its ups and downs. Punch in a very passionate, care deeply about what it is they do. Very people orientated and wanting and so and, you know, get on in the world, enjoy yourselves work hard, but play hard. And, you know, I really, really enjoyed that. I think it's something which is that I feel very, very privileged to be Paul. And going back to say your time playing rugby, did you find that other players and your friends and your colleagues around you had the same issues with getting close that would fit them? So you said, Did you have to have a lot of your clothes tailored? And was this like a continuing frustration that you were seeing around you as well? Yeah, I think as you just you know, I know a lot of people used to snigger at me about it and I don't think for some lads It was such an issue perhaps the really big tall guys but all he did was he just got exercise it didn't actually fit no clothes actually fitted you it just you just you just make it big enough. But also, I didn't want the big sizes to just define my brand either. I don't see that as you know, I bigger just just big and tall if it was just big and tall. No, no, we're a fashion brand. But we actually look after you know, so so let's let's be honest nice so so if we had to be honest, I don't want to upset anybody who might be listening to this or you can certainly cut this out and this is not meant to offend anybody. When we talk about the human figure and what real people look like I could quite easily question some of the fashion labels what they consider to be a normal size. And I'm not afraid to say we look after what I call normal size people not a made up size which is just I don't believe is healthy for anybody or any one of these either in the world and I'm not talking about vilifying anyone by just simply sometimes you just take a step back and realise what it is we're looking to service I know that sounds quite deep no don't upset anybody but I just think we just need to be realistic and actually you know we service our people and going back to my original point so if you could imagine I'll tell you this story and you don't have to keep it in I'm for searching for a little tiny vintage I get upset so I'm 44 years old Ryan is still upsets me I went to Butte haven comprehensive my first out big school and it was and people listen to so go you know whatever big school it was a massive deal going to big school for me compact little village school. The teacher the my first form it was 101 in the classroom and the teacher said to me Vickery you fat waste of space with his first words he said to me, nice. So but, but I'm sure it didn't help because my brother was a couple of years older than me and he was a bit of a Terrell and I'm sure you had a perhaps an influence from him by just sort of myself nice. I'm 44 years old, and I'm talking about it and then we're chatting two hours 11 and that still sits with me. And if I ever spoke to anybody like that, without knowing them, or even if I did know that he'd been joking, I just think that's a try. Try Travis Do you think this just makes me feel repulsive? But actually what that did for me was was set me and make me treat people properly. Rugby was the first sport because I was a big guy and I was when I was big and I'm proud to be bigger than big nine. Mr. Opie, my PE teacher. I'm getting deeper here so I appreciate that was for the first time. Welcome. Come in. Come and play rugby cuz I've never played rugby It was unusual because now you're paid sport from three, four or five years old. Don't worry, I'll help you. Just come and join in. Not that wow. And he did Mr. Opie so taught me and encouraged me I went to be Rugby Club and the firt it wasn't all you know you're big and fat and unfair was Welcome. Come in. You got boots? Yeah, don't worry, come and join in with the boys training will help here. We're encouraging. Wow. And suddenly a year. That's it. This is what sport is. Forget the elite pro sports. I keep telling people what goes on about elite pro sport. Absolute bollocks to that. Talking about sport, as is what sport should do. And he's doing went to be a rugby club. Wow, welcome, good to see a sense of pride where I came from a sense of belonging, support my local time. mazing is it gonna be brilliant? Then suddenly you get going, it's like, Phil, we want Phil in the team. He's good. He's a big chubby kid, suddenly, people want you in their team, you know, feel feel amazing. And then it just went from there. And I just think I know I go off on different tangents. But my point is that there are lots of little moments through my little life of where I've come from, that still have a huge impact in the way that I think and certainly when within the regime or business and what we are, we're a lifestyle brand. But we look after everybody because we are all the same. And go back to my point about what perfect sizes and being perfect no such thing as perfect, the celebrate who we are. And let's give people good clothes. I believe a great value is a great product, it looks after itself. And we listen to our people, we celebrate our people within the business because we celebrate the people outside of our business and been very lucky to grow now. A really cool brand, which I'm very lucky to have found. Well, I'm a big fan of the brand, Phil, I really, I say this a lot of the time on the podcast that people will know. But I love a brand with a journey. I like seeing the seeds of where it can come from because I think that's something you can latch on to. And ultimately, I like telling people when I'm wearing the clothes, why I'm wearing and I think you know what you wear is a big communication between yourself and somebody else. And if you're just wearing something for the sake of it, then it doesn't really say anything about you. But if you're saying something about what the journey of the brand is, and then you can parlay that into somebody else. That's, that's a big green tick for me. And I think Congratulations, man, you've got a great brand on your hands. And encourage everyone to check it out. It's raging bull.co.uk until I can't let you go without saying another sidebar of a thank you because I remember vividly when we did win the World Cup. And I was working in a market pub. And I was behind the particles of it being in Australia. There, you know is the crack of F around in the UK time. So remembering it being a complete day of joy. It wasn't something that happened at 7pm in the evening. For us it was something that we opened up the bars, especially and it was a big rugby pub. So not you know we had a couple of people in for the lesson. Let me let me tell you the the experience of that. And what it meant to me and my family, my friends and I've already told you a little bit about my background where I come from and what what happened was just truly the most incredible experience. And the best bit of you know, the game and the rugby actually was great. But if that wasn't the bit for me it was coming home and being able to celebrate with all you girls and boys. And where that'd be the open top bus tour. various different events, the Buckingham Palace going to number 10 different shows that dinners the it was just a magical experience I still get people will stop me today. And they'll just say the 20s I've got it not long ago in London, walking down the street. And a black cab screeches up can we get more so to me sakes, man that just says 22nd of November 2003 was a greatest day of my life. Thank you just bought back this back in his go and drives off. You know, and that's that's the privilege of people would tell you where they were with who they were with what they were drinking, what the colour of their shirt was. And that's the privilege of being able to affect people's lives like that and the joy of that moment. And you know, next time around, you know, is it 20 years, 20 years that next cycle in France is 20 years ago. You know, and I just, you know, magical and even and this is one I always tell people I was with Martin Johnson a couple of weeks ago he came to the children for me might do an evening with and as soon as I saw him the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Not Not Not, not because you want it to know but just It's straight away, straight away the hairs in the back your neck stand up, because that happens whenever I see any of the three boys because you did something so special together that you'll never be forgotten. And it just, it just makes it just honestly, it's just the most magical feeling. So thank you because ultimately, what makes it special for us? Is the fans. And I think particularly at the moment, we look at all the sporting events going on, like the fans, you know, those poor Aston Villa fans, you know, from from last night? Yeah, you know, imagine that stadia, you know, and I think it's made people realise just how important is the whole bit of score is and that goes back to and I tell you, when I retired, I'm rambling on a bit. Now, when I retired, all the things I remember some great quotes from people and some like Emma geek and all great legends of the game, which was, which was amazing, which was absolutely brilliant. But I'll tell you, the best ones, were letters that I received from rugby fans, and mums and dads that said, Thank you for who you are. Remember, you will remember this, but you signed my son's shirt or rugby ball, or you came to see us and got a photo and that in that the impact that had on that child or that family was far greater than you ever really gave it credit for. And I think that's a privilege of doing what we did is being able to touch and make a difference is so many people's lives. And that and that ultimately, and that is an honour and a privilege to have done it. So thank you. Now listen, I wish I was still in touch with a handful of the regulars that came into that pub at that time because they wouldn't believe I'm talking to you. I'm sure they'd want to tell you all about that day when you will. That really stood out like crazy day in Huntington town. That'd be crazy. respectful of your time. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing those stories. And best of luck with Brandon and everything else in between. Cheers thank you very much been a real pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Oh, how about that Phil? What a nice guy. It was great. Actually, just as I'm recording this he sent me a follow up email saying how nice it was to chat and this is his personal email etc. Phil and I are officially mates. I love that. I should have asked him what he thought of raging bulls movie. Well, look, I've got his personal email can ask you any time. Anyway, make sure you're supporting the good guys head over to Raging Bull dot code at UK and treat yourself or your loved ones. In the meantime, thanks for tuning in. If you like what you're hearing, leave a review. It does help out egos and until next time