JustWears is on a mission to reinvent men's basics using premium, sustainably sourced fabrics and ergonomic designs. Since running the most backed apparel campaign on Kickstarter in the UK, they’ve sold 40,000 pairs to 10,000 customers in 73 countries and have been featured on BBC Dragon's Den. Made from soft cellulosic fibre, MicroModal Air, all underwear is manufactured using a natural, high-performance fabric that is sustainably-sourced from Austria and feels 5x softer than cotton. It all started when Alexander met Yang Liu in a Bangkok hostel, and they lived on opposite sides of the world. After years of long distance, they decided to meet in the middle and make the UK their new home.
While working in finance, Alex regularly complained about his underwear not fitting properly. When he couldn’t find a solution in the market, he decided to do something about it. Together they travelled around the globe, testing thousands of fabrics and prototypes. What began as an idea quickly took off on Kickstarter, and within the first 30 days of their crowdfunding launch, they had thousands of people pre-ordering their underwear. JustWears quickly climbed the charts to become the most backed apparel project ever in the UK. They were then invited to pitch on BBC Dragons’ Den where Touker Suleyman said “you two together will make it”.
In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview JustWears Co-Founder, Alexander Walsh, about the back story of this men's basics brand and how he believes many men's underwear brands are out of touch with the modern consumer. Our host Peter Brooker and Alexander discuss how JustWears aims to solve functional problems by using premium fabrics and ergonomic designs. They also chat about how to launch a successful Kickstarter campaign, the perfect sustainable fabric for underwear, the importance of consumer research, and how brand loyalty can be disrupted.
Whilst we have your attention, be sure to sign up to our daily MenswearStyle newsletter here. We promise to only send you the good stuff.
JustWears is on a mission to reinvent men's basics using premium, sustainably sourced fabrics and ergonomic designs. Since running the most backed apparel campaign on Kickstarter in the UK, they’ve sold 40,000 pairs to 10,000 customers in 73 countries and have been featured on BBC Dragon's Den. Made from soft cellulosic fibre, MicroModal Air, all underwear is manufactured using a natural, high-performance fabric that is sustainably-sourced from Austria and feels 5x softer than cotton. It all started when Alexander met Yang Liu in a Bangkok hostel, and they lived on opposite sides of the world. After years of long distance, they decided to meet in the middle and make the UK their new home.
While working in finance, Alex regularly complained about his underwear not fitting properly. When he couldn’t find a solution in the market, he decided to do something about it. Together they travelled around the globe, testing thousands of fabrics and prototypes. What began as an idea quickly took off on Kickstarter, and within the first 30 days of their crowdfunding launch, they had thousands of people pre-ordering their underwear. JustWears quickly climbed the charts to become the most backed apparel project ever in the UK. They were then invited to pitch on BBC Dragons’ Den where Touker Suleyman said “you two together will make it”.
In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview JustWears Co-Founder, Alexander Walsh, about the back story of this men's basics brand and how he believes many men's underwear brands are out of touch with the modern consumer. Our host Peter Brooker and Alexander discuss how JustWears aims to solve functional problems by using premium fabrics and ergonomic designs. They also chat about how to launch a successful Kickstarter campaign, the perfect sustainable fabric for underwear, the importance of consumer research, and how brand loyalty can be disrupted.
Whilst we have your attention, be sure to sign up to our daily MenswearStyle newsletter here. We promise to only send you the good stuff.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete broker How we doing? On this episode, I'm going to be talking to Alexander Walsh, the co founder and chief financial officer of just wears just where, as you may have already seen, they've been featured on BBC Dragon's Den, they got an offer turned it down, we're going to get into that story. And Alexander is going to take us behind the scenes of what it's like to be on Dragon's Den, which was fascinating for me. But a little bit about just Where's before we do, just where's it out there, man, they're on a mission to reinvent men's basics using premium sustainably sourced fabrics and ergonomic designs. Since running the most back apparel campaign on Kickstarter. In the UK, they've sold over 40,000 pairs to 10,000 customers in 70 plus countries. And boy, those numbers might even be old. I'm sure those have gone up since so stay tuned that interview to come. Before we get into that, head over to menswear. store.co.uk that's where we'll put all the show notes and the links for everything that we talked about here, as well as some travel features, trending news and competitions where you can win some good stuff. That's menswear. style.co.uk. And you can type that into your smartphone and your social. And follow us over there. If you want to get in touch with the show, maybe tell us about your journey, your brand. You're dealing in these times, then email us at info at Men's westoe.co.uk. Okay. Here we go. Here's that interview with Alexander Walsh, co founder and CFO of just wears. Well, it's my great pleasure to introduce to the podcast, Alexander Walsh, CFO and co founder of just Where's How we doing today, Alexander? doing really well. Thanks for having me on, Peter, it's a great pleasure to talk to you. And thanks again for taking time out of your day. Maybe I can ask you for a little bit about you your backstory. And if you can give me the journey of just words. That'd be brilliant. Yeah, sure. So we are all just wears essentially innovating men's basics, and a category that's really been lacking, which is men's underwear. And if you think about this industry, you know, for a long period of time, there's been very little innovation. And most brands out there are really out of touch with the modern consumer. And you can think about whether it be Calvin Klein Hugo Boss to exists, and you can go down the line. And pretty much all the brands out there have really put together an offering that I think is trying to oversell sex, and just doesn't really connect with the modern day consumer. So we've launched a brand that's significantly better and products that are really look to aim or aim to solve functional problems using really premium fabrics and ergonomic designs. And so yeah, that's just words. Yeah. And maybe just a little bit about you. So how did how did you start your background? And and how old is the brand as well? Oh, we've been around. So we initially launched the brand in 2017 is a more or less a test trial. We have this idea, I'd say back in 2016 2017. And we figured, why don't we put it up on crowdfunding or Kickstarter and see if people would actually be interested in this. And, you know, we were really surprised and quite pleased with the response that we got. I mean, we were actually overwhelmed with the amount of orders we had within the first 30 days, you know, over 2000 orders and ended up becoming the most backed apparel project in the UK on Kickstarter. And from there, we got a bunch of product Yeah, and and just had a tonne of people saying they absolutely loved it. And we're coming back for more. And so that kind of gave us a big enough signal to say, yeah, let's build this into a business and take off from there. So we launched our website in twin, a basically late 2018 and have been scaling the business for the past year and a half. Yeah. And I mean, I have done I can't tell you the amount of countless campaigns that I've tried to get off the ground projects through Kickstarter, crowdfunding. I mean, what was your secret recipe? What was it that captured the imagination do you think? Well, I think we were touching into something that you know, people, you know, agreed with and we're looking for. So before we even did Kickstarter, we went out and just talk to men and just said hey, you know, how do you feel about the brands that you wear? How do you feel about and we did this across a lot of different product categories. So everything from shoes to watch this to shirts to trousers, we just went out and had hundreds and hundreds of conversations. And I would say the most interesting thing that came back was, you know, really in the underwear space, all the existing brands were really out of touch. And I mean, I personally found that my underwear collection, which was largely, you know, composed of Calvin Klein, was pretty cheaply made, you know, I think overpriced. And also just, I mean, I previously worked in finance. So when you're, you're sitting at your desk for 13 hours a day, just can get really uncomfortable. Um, and so we consistently found that as we talked to more and more men, and so I think when we launched the solution to that, right off the way off the bat that kind of connected with something that like, people weren't really out there speaking about, but when they saw it, they said, Yeah, okay, that's something that I want. Um, and so I think it was really just kind of coming up with and doing a lot of research before we ended up launching, we probably worked on the project for, you know, nine months before before getting to launch. And I think that sort of background research of really understanding our customers and understanding, you know, who would potentially buy this? And why would they buy it, I think really helped to get it off the ground when we started. Alex, can you help me out with something? When you say research, and you go out and you ask people, how do you mind drilling down on that a little bit? Because I've been told the same thing, you know, if I've got an idea go, Well, you need to go out, you need to do some surveys, you need to get, you know, some first hand research, what do people actually want? How do you go about getting these t shirts? How do you go about asking people? Well, I mean, that comes back to like, one of our core principles that Joss wears, is Be humble, but have balls. And what we mean by that is, you know, have the confidence and willingness just to go out and try something, you know, whether that's talk to the girl at a bar, or it's go, you know, sitting next to someone on the train and just ask them about their underwear. Like, literally, there were situations like that, where we would ask strangers, friends, family, essentially, we had kind of a list of package questions. And, and whatever situation we were in, we could be at the bar, we could be at a party, we would just run through them with people. And that led to a lot of really interesting and pretty funny conversations. And then we kind of tagged them down, put them in a big spreadsheet, and then, you know, have some conversations about them. In the early days. Nice. Okay. Well, that's I mean, that's it that's going out and actually talking people and getting those those first time stories as a great icebreaker as well, isn't it? I think I'm sure you can come up with better icebreakers. Yeah. Well, it's a different one anyway. I mean, you'll when we spoke off air, just before we put the mics on, we talked about brand loyalty. And I think how guys, especially, I just so kind of one track mind when it comes to a brand. I mean, they might not even like you say, they might not even really like the pants they're wearing. But because it's got the brand. On the last day in there. It's kind of synced in almost by osmosis that these will fit me these will be like every other Garmin I own with the brand, and it will serve me that same purpose. But it's really not the case with pants, isn't it? They kind of they fall off the cliff there. Well, actually, that was probably one of the most interesting things that came out of our conversations. After speaking to 200 300 men, we found out that men on average, only own two brands of underwear. And so what was interesting about that is I mean, essentially it says that, that the men are out there, you know, once they find something that's good, you know, we want to have kind of consistency, and we want to stick with it. Um, but what was really interesting is when we ask people, okay, if you're sticking with the same brand, how do you feel about that brand? You know, how do you feel connected with this brand? You really like it? How involved Do you feel with whether it be Calvin Klein, Hugo Boss, whatever their brand was, we would ask him this. And on a scale of one to 10, we found that most men would put down a four or three or four out of you know, how connected do they feel with that brand. Um, and that was really, really interesting, because this was a space where you could say, okay, there are very high repeat rate. So there's very high brand loyalty, but actually very low brand affinity. And so it's really something that people buy out of convenience and out of consistency. And so if you can then into, you know, disrupt that space, with, you know, a significantly better offering at a reasonable value, then you can collect or basically get a lot of people on board in the early days, who are then going to come back to you and buy a second time and third time and fourth time. And really focusing on the product. We actually found that that hold true. I mean, in our first year and a half, two years, we've had really Repeat rates, you know, well north of 40%. And I mean, that's, that's just been absolutely phenomenal. Just how how much people are willing to kind of come like once they decide, yeah, okay, just wears is way better than anything I've ever worn. Now I'm going to clear out my entire underwear drawer and come back and buy a four or five times to basically replace my underwear drawer with this because it's much better. And that's been something that's really blown us away. And, you know, to see that like, level of customer loyalty has been really cool. It's strange how guys are wired this way. And I think when it comes to brands, I mean, I'm not disclosing myself from this group. By the way, if I have a shirt from a brand or a pair of trousers from a brand, I will then look for other things within their ecosphere that I can buy. And I often find where they often fall down is in watches, where they kind of go, Wait, now's the time to launch your watch, because we've nailed every other market. And then the watch comes out. And it's horrible. Most of the time, it's also perfume, but then the pants as well, you're so right with some of the pants that are bought over the years that I've bought just because of an affinity with a brand. And yeah, no, that was what was so interesting about this, as you see, so many of these brands that don't have anything to do with that, like they're not specialists in the space, they just decided to launch it as some other thing to add to their category. And what happens is, is they basically go to China, they would take some white label products, they put their logo on it, and that becomes you know, what they sell, and it's just very cheaply made, and, you know, either falls apart or just doesn't fit well. So, you know, when we go out there, we do 3040 iterations of the product, before we launch our first prototype, you know, that I think came through, and then after that, were very much a brand that, you know, has, like one of the wonderful things about being an online brand, is you can have a two way, you know, dialogue with your customers that you can't have in store, you know, if someone walks into the store, they take something off the shelf, and they leave one you don't know who that person is to you don't know how they felt about it three, I mean, they might have a lot of ideas that you just don't know. But when you're an online brand, like us, what's been awesome is, is a lot of people who try the brand, you know, will then be in touch with us on email, comments, social media, other flat platforms, where we can collect a lot of information and data that tells us Hey, in this particular size, it would be better fit in if we added a little bit more space to the crotch area. Or if we change the waistband composure to be softer, or, you know, a bit more rigid, so it doesn't fold over, like all these sorts of things are feedback that we can gather very quickly. And then we can iterate you know, very much more faster than like some big company that has all this product in store, then, you know, two, three months of getting that feedback, we can then put that to work, change the product, you know, and then launch adjust, whereas 2.03 point now, we've now done, you know, really different, you know, kind of major reworks, but there are pretty significant reworks of the product and things that we felt like we can improve. And honestly, I think, you know, what we serve today is significantly better than what's out there. But compared to what what could be done, you know, when you think about all the features and benefits. And it's funny, when you think about pants, you don't really think about features and benefits. But once you really start getting into it, there's a lot of things that could be done in the optimal, perfect pair of underwear, which you know, are still yet to come. So that's that's kind of where we're at. And I think we're one of the I would, I would argue that we're probably the only company out there that's really thinking about it. That's awesome. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the fabric that's used. So it's sustainable beech tree, if I'm sitting there Yeah, that's right. So we had, we had travelled to a lot of different conferences, gone across three different continents, essentially just sampling different types of fabric, everything from cotton to you know, different types of linen to bamboo. And in that process, we found this fabric that was actually made from Beech Tree fibres, which was significantly softer than cotton, about three times softer antimicrobial and it just breathe a lot better than a lot of the products that we found. And also I mean one of the things that we care a lot about adjust where's the sustainability and when we found out that this actually uses 10 times less water and about 20 times less land to produce then con and cons are very problematic crop. Um we really started to explore it the more we explored it the more we liked it and and ultimately that was what we ended up launching one so our products are made from Yeah, Peachtree fibres which are it sounds funny that you know your your underwear is made out of wood, but it is actually a lot more comfortable than then I would say. Well, there's a lot of great zingers on the website. By the way, the phallus for your palaces is one of the best I think I've heard and, and you can lspr phallus, but yeah, that's right. Oh, did I screw that up? What did I say? Either palace palace or palace for your family? Oh, yeah, we've got a bunch of that. It's a really fun place to go, you should just hyphen wares.com. By the way, we'll leave a link in the show notes. And there's also a great like story of you going on Dragon's Den? Would you mind recounting that for us as well? Yeah, so Well, first off with the brand, I think. I think what's interesting, you know, when you think about when you really start to think about this shift from bricks to cliques, the offering essentially needs to change if you're thinking about, okay, what is going to get in front of people? Because what do you think about, if you're on the high street, right, now, let's take the 70 stores that are on the high street, if you, you know, essentially get one of those stores, put a nice storefront up, enough people are gonna walk by, they're gonna stroll into your store and pick some stuff up, potentially buy it. And that's, you know, a lot of businesses have built their business. But when you build a brand, completely online, you could build the most, you know, pretty store in the world, and nobody's going to find it and the vast expenses of the internet. So you really need to come into an industry with a very differentiated point of view, and get out there and really spread that message either through social media or through, you know, some other platform. And so, I think with that, you know, with us we really focus on okay, how can we make really great products that actually are functional? But then with our brand, it's okay, how can we, you know, tell a story or have fun that is, you know, true to our core values of, you know, be humble but have balls and and, and that delivers comfort, confidence and fun. And, you know, what we found is that humour ends up being the best thing and so a lot of what we do out there is just kind of having fun with our customers. And, and even some of these slogans that you mentioned, many of them have come from, you know, customer ideas, like we run pawn competitions, sometimes where we do give away a free product. Um, we ran one over Christmas, where we did, essentially, we ran upon competition with our existing customers, where people got to submit their favourite holiday pawn related to underwear or balls, or just wares. And we selected the top two or three, and we gave them a free set. And then we'd use those pawns to then you basically create our Christmas gift package. And so you know, the best ones where we're take care of your North Pole this holiday season. Oh, awesome. Yeah. And then I think the winner was show Santa's how to carry a sack with style. Oh, there you go. That's great. You've got your own writing team. Now they're all just chipping in with these. And then you can just reward them with some, some pounds. That's great. Exactly. And that's, that's what it means when you're, you know, you can build a brand that is more engaging and focuses on building kind of a community. Um, and so that's kind of, you know, what I what I meant on that front, and then and then I think you were mentioning Dragon's Den. So I think when you're putting out a lot of this, you know, interesting content online. Um, the nice thing about that is it brings in other opportunities. And so about a year ago, we, we randomly got an email from some producer that said, Hey, we're with the BBC. And we're looking for companies to come on Dragon's Den, we thought your ads are really funny, we would love to have you on. And when I saw that, I actually thought like, I didn't think Dragon's Den did this. I was a scam. So actually, I kind of ignored it for probably about three weeks, until I eventually said, Okay, why don't we just see where this goes. So I responded came back to him. And it turned out to be very real. And then over the course of the next three to four months of auditioning and everything we got through and eventually got into the show. Um, and so yeah, it was it was really cool. I mean, you essentially go up to Manchester, you filmed the whole thing with the dragons, and negotiate an offer and, and we were really lucky to get a couple offers. Um, and so I think that just that experience is just such a cool, you know, story to Yeah. So were you in a position when they came to you or you're in a position where you were thinking about getting extra investment, or was the business already showing a good trajectory, but you didn't need anything like this? Well, I would Hope if you're raising investment, the business is already showing a good trajectory. I mean, the right type of investment raising is when you're on a good trajectory, and you need a bit more rocket fuel to kind of take it to the next level. Right? So yes, we were we were looking for investment. And it just so happened, they reached out the right time. And so we said, yeah, we would love to be on the issue, if not the issue, but I'd say, so one of the things that we noticed from the show, is that the Well, I would say we we tend to over prepare for everything. Yeah, I love this. I love this story. Yeah, please. Yeah. So before we even went in, I had watched the past three or four years of Dragon's Den, like literally, with a spreadsheet up and then were recorded every single company that was in there. What was the company where they go in for? What valuation? Did they pitch? What was the revenue? And then what offers? Did they like? Did they get an offer? Yes, no, and if not, why, and then what was the valuation of their offer. And after doing that, and collecting data on 150 different companies that have been in the show, um, we realised that the median pre money valuation For Dragon's Den company is about 145,000 pounds. Now, in the world of angel and venture capital, that is quite low. And and, you know, oftentimes, it can actually be quite hurtful to a company. Because if you give away, let's say, 30, or 40% of the business, when you're at a very early stage, there are some situations where that can really help. And there are some situations where that can actually make it very difficult to raise more funding, which you're probably going to need down the road. So we kind of, you know, we had an obligation to our investors, because we did have some existing investors by that point, to go in, you know, at a valuation that was both fair to them. But that also, you know, would encourage a dragon to come on board. And we can pretty close, I'd say, but ultimately, in the end, there was just a little distance between where they wanted and what we felt like was fair to our existing investors. And yeah, I mean, moral of the story is, is actually, we were really, really fortunate to bring on this new I would call them a new age of, of dragons, kind of like a bunch of influencers, that that are also doing investment at a at a meaningfully better valuation, I would say, right. So, I mean, were you were you thinking of a particular dragon in mind when you went in there and be like, ah, I hope we get him or hope she puts an offer in? Yeah, I mean, I love the show. And I was would have loved to have all of them. Yeah, I think, I think Tuco Suleiman is a great one in terms of his background in retail. If we ever wanted to then move into getting into stores, he would be a really, really good person for that. And then I think taste levani is just so smart. And he really understands brands and branding. So those were the guys that I think we really targeted going in and it turns out, you know, when we were in the den, those are the actually the two guys. Right? Yeah, that's man, that's so cool. I mean, it's, it's such an interesting show as well. I mean, I'm hooked on that show. And I always feel like the people that go in there that don't get the investment are one or two people that go well, look, we appreciate the offer. But like you say, it's not what we came in for it's a little bit low. below our estimations are the ones that just don't get the investment anyway, or the ones that hadn't prepared that they didn't get the numbers right. And that really, really infuriates the dragons when they kind of overestimate what their net return might be or whatever it might be. If you screw up on the on the date or in the initial research and the numbers, then you can almost see the mentally they're ejecting out of the process. So my favourite moment from that, which actually didn't make it onto TV, and there's actually a lot of moments because they, well, we were out in front of the dragons, you know, on camera, with makeup on and everything actually the first time I've ever worn makeup in my life. But uh, we were in there for about two hours, you know, catching the dragons and then negotiating with them. And my favourite part of the whole segment, which didn't actually get in there was there was a moment where we're Peter Jones. So we had we had placed a banana. Essentially one of our core features is a pouch or or your member and that gives you more space and more support. And that actually has some ventilator materials and aside to keep your balls cool, but we had flipped one of the pairs inside out We'll put a banana into the pouch to demonstrate the feature. And so during this time, and we also also had given some pairs to each of the dragons, which we thought, you know, were as a gift because we got their sizes from, from the editors. So in one part, Peter Jones goes, You know, I really liked the product. I really liked the fabric, the branding is quite cool. And he goes, he goes, but the pouch, it's because it's awfully large, isn't it? And, and he goes, and that's an awfully big banana used in there. Isn't that just going to alienate some men? And so firstly, when I'm thinking about something to say, you know, before I can even say anything, my wife and see who you can imagine is about a five foot tall, you know, Chinese woman initially fires back. Yeah, immediately. Is that a bad thing? Yes, no, no, it's not a bad thing. It was a small winner. It could be. And that's her next response was even better, where she said, Oh, that's okay. Peter, if we got your size wrong, we can change it out after the show. But I guess they didn't they, they, you know, it's a it's a family show. So they didn't want Yeah, and he doesn't want to, you know, give away the fact that he might have some mysteries. He doesn't want to ruin that reputation. I mean, the guy's about seven foot two. And I know. So but, but we had a lot of fun with them. And we kept in touch afterwards, and actually, one on one. So it tastes levani had given us the best offer in the draft. And again, he actually, his team would come back about a month later to actually improve the offer to where we were at the time. And we definitely would have taken him up on that. But at the same time, we had this this other group that actually had already invested right around the same time at an even better situation or evaluation. Right? That's fascinating. Yeah, I didn't even know that. I didn't even know that was a thing that they can come back to you later down the road and go, Hey, it was great seeing you on the show. I've had another rethink. And you're right, I'm gonna meet you at your price. So I just didn't know that sort of thing happens later down the track. I didn't know it either. I was really shocked by it. Yeah. Because you had come in asking for a four or 5%. They had countered at 20. And we had asked them if they can come to 10 in the show. And they said no. And then yeah, about a month later, they actually said no, we thought about it. And we could do 10. And yeah, that was that was what really shocked me. And the lift isn't reliever? I've heard right. It's just a waiting room of sorts. It is Yeah. Yeah. to demystify that for people, but it's, yeah, it's just Well, I mean, it really takes some tools, pardon the pun to get on show like that, because you're really exposing everything going to mean, also you hired the acting coaches, I read on your blog, you had all these sort of different things that were going on ahead of time, because you I guess you just wanted to get everything so well prepared. So it wouldn't be for the lack of preparation, the reason why you wouldn't get a deal or an alpha? Yeah, I mean, it's a big thing to go on TV, you know, I mean, we're not TV personalities or influencers, we're normal people that are trying to build a great company. And so when you get invited to go onto something like that, I feel like you need to prepare. So whether it's an acting coach or something, you know, doing the doing the research, knowing your numbers, all that sort of stuff, like we take to heart because the last thing we want to do is show up to seem like we don't know what we're talking about. Yeah. And also, you don't know what the narrative is going to be right? Because they can let you say they can edit it in any way they like, you know, like any kind of reality show, they can kind of make it look like how they want to make it look. So it's out of your hands to a certain extent. Of course, but I think as a company, you need to accept that. So I think, you know, it's, it's their TV show at the end of the day, and you're going on there to buy it, provide them some great content. Hopefully you have some fun doing it. And hopefully, you know, you get some laughs out of it. I think that's the kind of the mentality that we went in. You know, of course, it'd be amazing to get investment evaluation you'd like that doesn't always happen. And you just kind of got to roll with it. And so yeah, since then, I mean, it's been great exposure, we actually did end up getting investment from so one of the things that we did was we just reached out to all the most successful campaigns that have been on the show, just to ask them to be our mock dragons as we prepare. And we did end up getting investment from one of the most successful companies that have been on there, which is a company called look after my bills. So that founder had pretty much mentored us and coached us through that time period. And after we had done the show said, I really like you guys, I would like to invest in you and and be part of this journey. And since then he's given us incredible insight and advice as to how to build a business, not to think about marketing, how to think about hiring, how to think about so many different features that as a young entrepreneur, you just don't have the experience or skill set yet. Yeah. And so since, you know, although we didn't get an investment in Dragon's Den, you know, I think by bringing the right type of people around our business, it's really helped take us to the next level, I would say, from the time that we went on the show to now we've probably increased the business by four or five acts. Um, and, yeah, I think it just goes to show what you can achieve when you kind of have the right mentors around you who can teach you the right things. Awesome. Well, congratulations, man. It looks brilliant online. The website looks fantastic. The product looks great. So what's next for the brand? What are you working on at the moment to bring the brand to five x? Yeah, so well, we, our mission is, is to reinvent all of men's basics. You know, we see this as a cause not just, you know, to start, we're beginning with underwear. But for us, you know, we really look at things like under shirts and socks, and we think creatively about, okay, how can we, you know, introduce a innovative undershirt that has really premium materials, and it has either ventilated, or, you know, powdered fabrics in the underarms or other areas that would prevent, you know, sweat from staining your shirts, because I'll be honest, you know, my dress shirts, over a certain period of time, are pretty much all stained. Um, and, you know, we think about socks as well, where, you know, if you could develop a certain with the kind of latest and textile technology, you can develop socks that won't smell, and they'll fit properly. So all these sorts of things. And then with our existing products, I mean, we're rolling out a lot of different styles, on as well as trunks briefs, as well as innovating the styles that we have. So, you know, our most popular product has been the boxer brief with the pouch, because it's a really kind of interesting and innovative design that other companies aren't offering. But then we look at that and say, Okay, how can we do that better, and more interestingly, and something that serves a purpose of people out there, that could be looking at putting stiffer fabrics into the legs to prevent them from running up, which you've already adjusted the style to prevent from running out, but it's, how can we take that further, it could be, you know, putting small foam inserts into the tip of the pouch to prevent from and this is gonna sound funny, but you know, post post pee drip, you're on a date, right? And you use the loo and then you come walking back all confident, your girlfriend or wife, please hurry up with that design here. Please, I've definitely had that situation. So these things that I think Calvin Klein is definitely not thinking about. And I think most companies just they're they're small problems that companies don't want to bother themselves with. But if you actually talk to people, there's lots of different things you can do with these products. And that's really where we're going with it. We want to be one of the most innovative companies in what's otherwise a very boring and innovative space. Well, Alex, you have my number, please send me a text when that goes straight online. Because for that very reason that I don't wear stone denim. So I just don't I have to wear dark jeans, because you never know when those sort of things happen. And it's all the things that kind of weirdly affects your psyche and competence when you are in public and you don't ever tell anyone. And yeah, it's it's much needed in the Brooker household. So Alex just wears just hyphen. wears.com is the place to go. And people can enjoy the website, they can enjoy the products, and on the social as well, on the Facebook and on the Twitter. All the links can be found through the website. Alex, thanks so much for taking time out to speak to me today. Of course, thank you, and best of luck with the product and I look forward to seeing some more designs. Yes, yeah, have a good day. Excellent. I by Alexander Porsche Thank you, Alexander. Remember the website just hyphen waste calm that's the place to go. Why not stock up on some really nice boxer briefs, a palace be a phallus doesn't get any better than that. In the meantime, look. Thank you everyone for sharing. There's a lot of podcasts out there. So appreciate you taking the time out to listen to this. And if you're liking what you're hearing, just leave a little review in your old smartphone there. And until next time, remember it's only fashion people and you're never fully dressed without a smile.