Menswear Style Podcast

David Cullen, Founder of Unseen Footwear

May 20, 2020 Menswear Style Episode 59
Menswear Style Podcast
David Cullen, Founder of Unseen Footwear
Chapters
Menswear Style Podcast
David Cullen, Founder of Unseen Footwear
May 20, 2020 Episode 59
Menswear Style

Atterley is a fashion destination that celebrates and redefines the boutique experience with one seamlessly stylish online platform. Working in partnership with an inspiring global community of independent fashion retailers, they bring you bespoke access to a covetable mix of premium, emerging, and undiscovered labels expertly curated by some of the world’s most talented fashion buyers. Customers can shop a mix of new and established brands from around the world, from your device to your doorstep with worldwide express delivery as standard. One of the independent retailers partnered with Atterley is Roulette Clothing, owned by David Cullen. This menswear store is where style-savvy shoppers on the Island of Jersey go for their fashion fix. David is also the founder of Atterley stocked brand, Unseen Footwear, which is a relatively new sneaker brand designed for the modern-day gentleman.

A reaction to the brand driven logo obsession of today’s fashion landscape, Unseen footwear is designed for those that recognise that real style is understated, not bold and brash. That’s why each product is visually unbranded, keeping the focus on details such as the subtle tonal embossment on the tongue, and a flash of 3M reflective material at the heel. Inspired by Italian style and quality craftsmanship - but with a British sensibility - each shoe is designed in London but handcrafted in Italy from the finest Italian fabrics and sole suppliers, using artisanal production techniques.

In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Unseen Footwear and Roulette Clothing Founder, David Cullen, about the background story of his menswear store and new footwear brand. Our host Peter Brooker speaks to David about why Unseen Footwear is manufactured in Italy and its focus on sustainability. They also discuss how working with Atterley has brought in extra exposure and revenue during the Coronavirus pandemic; a time when it's difficult to operate as normal for many boutique stores and brand owners due to the lockdown restrictions.
 
Whilst we have your attention, be sure to sign up to our daily MenswearStyle newsletter here. We promise to only send you the good stuff.

Show Notes Transcript

Atterley is a fashion destination that celebrates and redefines the boutique experience with one seamlessly stylish online platform. Working in partnership with an inspiring global community of independent fashion retailers, they bring you bespoke access to a covetable mix of premium, emerging, and undiscovered labels expertly curated by some of the world’s most talented fashion buyers. Customers can shop a mix of new and established brands from around the world, from your device to your doorstep with worldwide express delivery as standard. One of the independent retailers partnered with Atterley is Roulette Clothing, owned by David Cullen. This menswear store is where style-savvy shoppers on the Island of Jersey go for their fashion fix. David is also the founder of Atterley stocked brand, Unseen Footwear, which is a relatively new sneaker brand designed for the modern-day gentleman.

A reaction to the brand driven logo obsession of today’s fashion landscape, Unseen footwear is designed for those that recognise that real style is understated, not bold and brash. That’s why each product is visually unbranded, keeping the focus on details such as the subtle tonal embossment on the tongue, and a flash of 3M reflective material at the heel. Inspired by Italian style and quality craftsmanship - but with a British sensibility - each shoe is designed in London but handcrafted in Italy from the finest Italian fabrics and sole suppliers, using artisanal production techniques.

In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we interview Unseen Footwear and Roulette Clothing Founder, David Cullen, about the background story of his menswear store and new footwear brand. Our host Peter Brooker speaks to David about why Unseen Footwear is manufactured in Italy and its focus on sustainability. They also discuss how working with Atterley has brought in extra exposure and revenue during the Coronavirus pandemic; a time when it's difficult to operate as normal for many boutique stores and brand owners due to the lockdown restrictions.
 
Whilst we have your attention, be sure to sign up to our daily MenswearStyle newsletter here. We promise to only send you the good stuff.

Unknown:

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The menswear style podcast. I'm your host, Peter Drucker. This podcast is brought to you by Attlee, who are actually here as well. Actually they are supporting the independent athlete calm. Their short mission is to bring together discerning fashion consumers and the inventory of the best boutiques and independence across the world. By adopting cutting edge technology and reaching out to their incredible followers, and customer base, they've perfected sales channel solution for their independent partners, and their most eclectic choice and range their customers. Hey, so if you're an independent, or you know one, then visit utterly.com. AWT eley.com, and sign up today. And you're going to hear at the end of this interview, I'm going to ask David what it's like to be in the athlete portfolio in their orbit, shall we say? And, you know, he just tells me Look, I'd be I don't know what I would do about the amount of traffic they put on my site. So they've been an invaluable asset for David and his brand and they might be for your brand, or a brand that you know, utterly.com is the place to go to sign up now. On this episode, we're going to be speaking to one of Attlee's independent brands, the founder of unseen footwear and roulette clothing, David Cullen, David Cohen is going to be joining us and it's a real meaty episode. There's can't wait to get into it. So before all that, make sure you're checking out our website man. www. menswear style hookeri. uk. That's where you're gonna find all of the articles we post about travel. fashion, how does that work? I guess not so much travel at the moment. But lots of articles on how to survive the pandemic. And look, you might be the founder of your own brand. You might want to be telling your story, your journey, then get in touch with us here. It's info at menswear. style.co.uk Okay. Here is that interview with founder of unseen footwear and roulette clothing, David? Well, it's my great pleasure to get on the phone David Curlin founder of unseen footwear and menswear boutique, let clothing how we're doing today, David. Hello. Yeah, I'm fine. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. How are you? Brilliant now, thanks for taking time out of the day. roulette clothing and unseen footwear I want to hear all about about first give me a thumbnail sketch of you please in your in your background. Okay, so um, yeah, I started menswear boutique roulette. And 15 years ago, based in Jersey and the Channel Islands. Prior to that, I had studied fashion up in Glasgow, and when I was a buyer for cruise, and that led me to making some good contacts within the industry. And, and seeing a slight gap in the market over in Jersey, it's not one of the fashion capitals of the world, we're a little bit behind the times. So allowed me to kind of scope out what was happening in the UK and bring a lot of new brands to Jersey. And so we opened first menswear store, and back in 2005 and then soon after we opened ladies. Then we opened a sneaker store and quickly found out by not best it women's wear. So I believe that to my mother and my sister and and then we opened the kind of big roulette store five years ago, which sits at one Queen Street, which spans over three floors in there. So part of runs from the basement floor where we where we house the sneaker and streetwear brands and the ground floors kind of what we call lifestyle and denim and upstairs now how saw contemporary brands and so yeah, so that's that's what we do at roulette. Great. Give me a little bit of information about jersey. Forgive me, David, I've never been to Jersey now. How much competition Are you looking at over there? And and what was it like opening such a big ambitious project in Jersey? Jersey is a strange little place. Normally when I meet people they say oh yeah, my brother used to go to Jersey. And yet Listen, there's 100,000 people here. I was born here. It's very cosmopolitan. And everyone says oh, you must be rich. If you live in Jersey now there is there is an element and order a class dojo and that's not the case for me and my family. And parents came over here from Glasgow and in the early 70s and stayed here ever since. And competition wise, you know, when we first opened There is some good schools kicking about. And, and a friend of mine, kind of best friend of mine, we thought we could bring in a lot of brands that weren't present. And so there's a few independents that kind of have fallen by the wayside since we first opened, and now cause our store situated at one Queen Street. On the high street. I'd say our main competitors now are the two department stores. And USC is came to the audience three, four years ago, with the vision initially that it was going to be a flannels. And but you know, what impact does that had directly on you? And USC, you know, we originally done certain brands that crossed over with them. And when they came, we kind of changed our strategy slightly. And looking back now, it was for the better of the business. And we slightly raised our game, you know, we wanted to work with brands that wanted to work exclusively with us and didn't want to work with, you know, such a big Empire. And, and I feel that the store at the moment is from a brand perspective, it's the best position has been ins from day to day one really, right? And how do you vet the brands, on your site and in your store, so the portfolio you have Edwin on there, you've got Kenzo north face, I mean, you've got some great powerhouse names on there. Yeah, it's always been a very difficult one for me when you're looking on our website, because, you know, certain brands might not sit together. And, you know, don't work out as adjacency. So it's always been very difficult from a digital interface to kind of communicate what we do in store, as I mentioned, there's three completely unique flaws in the store. And every floors, you know, the fit outs being completely different, the music's different, complete, feels different. And so it's always been difficult to communicate what we do in the store to what we do online. And so, unless you visit the store, you kind of understand what we do, I suppose it's pretty similar to other stores in the UK, where, you know, there's different fitouts, you know, I'm not comparing us to Dover street market, but you're going to Dover street market, that the basement is very difficult to work product you see on the second floor, and, and, you know, trying to adjust jerseys, we only have 100,000 people, it's it's it's a smaller demographic that we're hitting, but we try to kind of widen what we do in there. So any male on the island from the age of 14, up to kind of 60 year olds, we can kind of hit all age groups, you know, we do we do, we still have a made to measure suit service in them, we have, you know, accountants and lawyers still, you know, using that service. So, it's almost like a mini menswear department store. And now, you know, and so yeah, it's difficult to communicate, what we do is sometimes it does look a little bit jumbled up. But unless you've visited the store, it's it's difficult to get a clearer understanding of what we do. But we try to show what we do through social media channels, now, you know, and give our overview of this, each floor through and Instagram and Facebook, etc. Yeah, cuz it's hard to build an image in your mind of what the brand is, effectively from just an e commerce site I found because you, you do need to have some kind of personality attached to the brand, as well as having multiple brands under your portfolio. I'm always curious as to know, what's the over under brands coming to you and wanting to be on your website, or you having to approach brands and saying, hey, do you wanna come and join our pie? It looks pretty good over here. That That one's always a tough one, because the bronze approach you you probably don't want that you do you want to in the store, and you can't get I've always been very frustrated. And it's worked into two different levels, you know, we've been lucky. And that because we're the kind of most contemporary men's wear outfit in Jersey, that you know, the likes of canzoni y three, APC, you know, the kind of newer brands to their business over the past two or three years have been easier to attract because we've got the likes of stone Island and the CP. And so from that, you know, we haven't got the likes of, you know, a flannels around the corner or a choice or john Anthony or who might be you know, in different areas in the south or up And around the country. So attracting those brands have been have been easier. But this, you know, certain other brands I've always found very difficult when they don't know much about jerseys or place or roulette as a business and they only or hasn't, they haven't visited the store, it's difficult to get certain brands out there, you know, we have a list every season of our target brands that we want. And at the moment, we find it difficult to bring the brands we want on board, or the kind of particular and areas of the brands that we want to bring on board. You know, that's been frustrating, because it's not like, you know, the stores in Nottingham. So if there's an office space in London, that can jump on a train and be there in a few hours, Jays a little bit different, you've got to fly here. So, you know, and generally now it's brands that we have meetings with in Paris or Milan that we want to bring in store. And and they always kind of use the excuse. So, you know, we're not opening any more doors in the UK. And it's like, well, effectively, we're not in the UK, as such, you know, or mainland Britain. So it's always quite a complicated one with jazz. It's never straightforward. You know, we don't have we don't have VAT over here. So it's always difficult when we're set setting up new accounts with brands and, you know, what's your VAT registration number? And I've got to blame you don't have it? You know, some people don't understand that, you know, so, yeah, having a having a retail store in Jersey is pretty unique, you know, some things you got go against you and others go get them for you. So, you know, but all in all, you know, I'm lucky that we've been here because we have found it easier to get certain brands because there isn't stores around the area, because they'd be in the sea if that was the case. Okay. And what's the deal with postage? I'm just curious. Because I mean, we buy online, you got to tack on postage is any different from Yeah, we Yeah, important goods? We we have to spend a little bit more money. And then yes, send them to UK or mainland Europe or further. afield arms, one of those costs. We have to Yeah, you know, if we want it to just, you know, deal with the local community here and the hundred thousand people that we've got, then be very difficult to, you know, reach the minimums of brands like Kenzo got d squared coming in the firm, or two wins, you know, these these kind of more international brands that have higher minimums, it's very difficult to reach those minimums. And that's, you know, with the platforms now that we trade online with, it's been easier to hit them because we reach a bigger audience online. Yeah. Talk to me, David, about unseen footwear, please. So this is your own brand that you've started up? How old? And what was the process of this? Okay, so I've been developing on the scene footwear now for about four years. And it kind of started with as a buyer, for the store. I couldn't get particular types of products or footwear brands in the store that we wanted, we don't do the mainline brands, and, and we can't get the sneaker accounts that, you know, we kind of wanted. And I felt that there was a bit of a gap in the market for the type of product to sit with. So it's time for sneakers to sit with a product that we sell. And, and as a consumer, you know, I still buy brands that we don't sell in the shop. And I was a particular fan of one or two brands, and the I personally wore and when I approached them to sell them in store, again, we had this kind of discussion, or we're not opening any more stores in the UK. And you know, it became quite frustrated. So, this led me on to kind of start to, you know, do some research into the footwear industry. And like I say, as a consumer to particular brands that I wore and I liked and I tried to get for the store, Season and Season kept on getting more and more expensive. And then it kind of out priced me as a consumer buying these products didn't really believe the price they're charging for the product, you know, justified in the construction of these footwear brands, you know, yeah, so I started looking into developing my own footwear brand. And so a friend of mine had a London based sort of streetwear label. He introduced me to a footwear designer, and who had good contacts in Portugal. So we began to sample I gave him my ideas, you know, the kind of aesthetics I wanted of the shoes, and and we started kind of developing samples out of Portugal. And so it got to a stage where we'd kind of we'd kind of finalise for samples for different styles. And we have done a sample pack that we're again, we're gonna then look to start selling. And when the final samples reached us, London, and the uppers were on the wrong souls. So I'm going to sit down, it is a bit of a bit of a nightmare. And I kind of got quite disheartened by the whole project, you know, I was sort of a year 18 months down the line. time, effort, and finance has gone into the project by here. So I kind of put the idea on the shelf, so to speak, and, and then, you know, I kind of thought, Well, I'm this deep into the project. Now I'm going to keep going. So I started researching different footwear development companies, designers, and I came over came across a company called concept kicks, which is based in London. And their founder, Daniel Bailey, who very well respected footwear designer, and been in sort of sneaker books, and if you see their Instagram and website, you know, they've consulted for a lot of them, sports brands and footwear brands. So I met with Daniel shoden, where we've got to so far as a project, and you know, a bit of background about me, and why I want to do it and, you know, my experience in the industry. And then we started to redesign the original silhouettes that we had sampled in Portugal. So we kind of stripped back the ideas and looked at more timeless styles. And, you know, we look to, he asked me what sneakers growing up as a lad I used to wear, and I feel like you know, going through, when you do grow up, you know, you go through a period where, you know, you want to dress like a hooligan, or you're into hip hop, or you go through that kind of skate boy. So we looked at kind of four key styles. And, and, you know, we made the wrong card. And then I went to Linda Pella in Milan, to start sourcing fabrics and looking at soul units. And in Milan, he introduced me to our two Italian agents, retail and rough. And these two young guys, and I'm a bit of a people's person, and when I meet someone, I can kind of work out sort of within the first 10 minutes, whether I like them or not. And I just got a good feeling about these two boys. And they were they still the production for the new Gods group. So they done production for masala, blonde, Parma angels off white, and then we're starting out by their own. And they can do from design right the way through to the final production. And so we started sampling out of Italy, initially, I was a little bit cautious of Italy, I didn't really want the price point to increase from where I thought I would be within the market. And then when I seen the first set of samples, and the quality blew me away. And, and that was from that point, I kind of knew this was these are the guys who I was going to start building our working relationship with and continue this project. And so I went to visit them in Italy. They work out of like civitanova lamarque, a district went to visit the area. They showed me the corner where the Todd's headquarters are the caring group do that production there across Balenciaga, Gucci, Alexander McQueen. One of the products try to footwear factories are there. So I got a really good feeling about the area and, and the team that we were starting to build. So that then took me to the finish on factory got introduced to the fourth generation owner of this factory. And I don't know, like yeah, again, I just got the sense that these that this is the team I want to work with. And you know, we finished the sampling in Italy. And then we decided to do the first production run. And so we went direct to consumer and and we launched that in December at over two of the styles. And the reaction was great, you know, the finished quality of the production again, it blew me away. And I thought to myself, right, I am going to put my name to this brand because this is for me from a quality perspective of footwear. You know, it's as good as any of the mainland brands. It looks fantastic, man. Yeah, they look awesome. I mean, I'm not just saying that I'm on your website and sorry to interject, but just I just want to kind of give you my two PS where I am with your brand. Like you I'm not really one for logos. I don't have anything logo on My my body even as I sit here, there's certain brands that I even kind of stay away from even though I like them and respect them, they might just have that tiny little insignia is a good one for this Lacoste really like their products, love the history, hate the crocodile, it can be tiny as you like. But it's just that little embellishment on an item of clothing or on a trainer, that just makes me go cheer, and steers me the other way. For a couple of years, your shoes and trainers are the worst for this trainers are like, let's have everything branded on your train, let's make sure everybody can see what the logo is what the brand is a million miles off. And why you have got it just on the nails there. I think I think these are some of the best trainers that I've seen. But anyway, let me just let you go in, I've kind of got, you go for a step away from the kind of logo driven mania that's out there right now. And I kind of get quite frustrated when a particular shoe and becomes the next type product on the market purely because of a logo, you know, and I think I look deeper into product than that. And, you know, I love a good, well designed shoe. And, you know, for me, it's about the production. It's what goes into the shoe where the fabrics are from, you know, and how it's put together. And Congrats, man, I think you've got a really good solid product. And I don't want to get as crass to talk about money. But I just wanted to drill down. I know what it's like starting up a brand and how much you have to kind of inject personality into it. Are we getting it into the into the black? are we are we starting to see some dividends? At this particular stage right now? No, we're not in the black. And obviously, that you know what's gone on in the world right now. And I think if if all the retailers that we were supplying are still open, and we'd be in a much better position. But looks like we've been kind of knocked back eight to 10 weeks. So we'll see how, you know, when when the department stores that we're working with, you know, when Selfridges reopens when Liberty reopens, and then you know, we'll get a better indication of where we're going to be come the end of the season, you know, our, our end of season date has been pushed back slightly. And so, you know, Paris is not happening this season, as well. And so the, the way the timeframe works and the fashion industry, I think now, hopefully is going to make better sense coming out of this. And we're going to get product delivered into stores when we do that. And so, yeah, overall, it's it's gonna be gonna be tough trying to work out exactly how the the seasons work when we come out of COVID-19. And, but hopefully, it's going to be beneficial for us as a brand and the retailers. David, talk to me a little bit about the quality and the sustainability element of the trainers. How important is that to you as well? Yeah, very, one of the main reasons why we wanted to make everything in Italy, and was to keep our carbon footprint as low as possible. So all the elements of the footwear, soles, laces, the inner soles, the materials, the packaging, is all sourced within a 15 mile radius, the finishing factory. And which keeps, like I said, our our carbon footprint super long. And moving forward. We've discussed with the Italian agents that for autumn winter 21, we want to be as close as we can to be fully sustainable in all aspects of the production. And how have they responded to that? What sort of things do you need to ask them to meet their requirements? Well, that's their side of it, is the task portion. I don't use it. I, you know, we visit the sole manufacturers and the supplier and their material suppliers. So it's now kind of their task to make sure that we make sure every step of the way is fully sustainable. You know, it's great to be able to visit visit the finishing factory, you know, I get to see all the guys that work in that family run business, you know, everyone's getting, you know, the correct pay. There's no sort of sweatshops as as such and you know, the Italians have got it very well policed over them and in the levels and the factories. So well part of it really is it you get to have a nice long weekend when you go there. Oh, yeah, yeah, I love this tonight. We are flying to and cola. The boys pick me up. They now got a lab in Toronto, where they've got machines that can do knitted up is a 3d print machine and they're, and they're developing 3d showrooms. So you know, now with Paris and people not knowing what's going on with Fashion Week, you know, we're looking to roll out a 3d studio that when we finish our samples, we can get the product photographed and videoed. And we can invite buyers to come into our 3d showroom and view the new products kind of almost immediately. Perfect. Cool. Yeah, then like I said, the Italian agents are really on it. And the guys, they know what they're doing. I've got all got so much trust in the boys over there. Yeah. And talk to me a little bit please about the wholesale that you had that you started in Paris and getting the product into Selfridges, liberty and seven store, what were the obstacles that you had to go through to get this off the ground? Yeah, well, once we launched series, one, which I've done, direct consumer, and through my own, we have retailers, and the feedback and on the product in kind of success of finished product that we had made. And I was over the moon with the quality and this is when I decided, right, this is time now to launch the wholesale part of business. And, and for me, you know, we design a product in London, we make it in Italy, and but there's just something about Paris and Paris Fashion Week, that's a little bit special. And so we decided to partner with Polly King, who has international showrooms, they've got they're based in London, they've got full time office in New York now. And they take up temporary space in Paris, and Copenhagen. So we launched in Paris last June. And from series one, series two, we kind of rolled out the four styles. And I think we, we had about 28 samples in total for Paris to launch the brand. So you know, it looked like a proper collection when we displayed it in the showroom. And, and for me, the first season, it was more about quality over quantity, you know, we didn't, I personally didn't want to work with any retailers out of the UK for the first season just from a logistic point of view. And, you know, being able to communicate openly and see the product in the stores. So it's about kind of selecting and being quite, I wouldn't say precious over the brand, but just by being sure that we're going to work with the first with our partners at the first instance, the right partners. And by the end of the week, you know, and liberty showed interest from day one. And we got that over the line. Selfish is a bit of a surprise, and in Paris, but we decided to work with them on the northern stores first in Manchester, Birmingham. And later on the season, we started working in London. And we also work with seven store, which for me is probably one of the best independent stores in the UK right now. From our brand perspective, and the look and feel of a store. And so be able to work with these three key partners to the first season. It allowed us to kind of hit three slightly different consumers as well. And so yeah, it was it was a great buzz after Paris to open the doors and work with them such great retailers. And how does one even go about getting into Selfridges? I mean, I imagine they must get so many emails and phone calls with people that have got their own brand and product and go Hey, how about me on Selfridges. So is it easier to start north and work your way down? Is that? Well, well, I think what Selfridges do obviously the London store is the biggest store, you know, the highest footfall in the footwear department in an ox history is, is massive, you know, and it's, it is a footwear, kind of Mecca, you know, you've got every single brand in law, it's difficult to get it in a you know, you know, fortunately for me being on the buying circuit for sort of 20 years now, I've been able to meet a lot of good buyers and make contacts you know, I know a lot of the key personnel within the industry. So lucky enough, it was easy to get in front of these guys because they've got busy schedules, but I kind of already had an upper hand from knowing who I needed to speak to. Before going in blind as you know, some new brands might do so because I had the experience from the circuit and being in Paris. I picked out who he wanted to approach. And we managed to get in front of them and get them in the showroom. David, we've, we spoke at length about some of the brands and how we vet them to get into black clothing. You're actually underneath another portfolio, another umbrella, which is utterly and so take me through the process, what's it like working with these guys? Yeah, so we started working with actually with, with the roulette website, and actually can kind of plug into the back of our stock control system and pull out a product. So we've been working, you know, we worked with a number of platforms, and our online operations manager came to me and, you know, suggested we start working battley, and I actually, at the time hadn't heard about them. And like I say, we do work with four or five platforms, and, and utterly, so far to this day, has surprised me very much in the actual sales that we're making. And it's always one, it's always first or second, week or week. And so that's why I decided to also work directly with them on on seeing footwear. And, and so far, I've been very impressed with the support from the marketing team. And they're very productive. And it's seems to me like a very good starting working relationship that we've got with them, and been very pleased so far up to this date. With some of the boutiques in lockdown, how much of a lifeline is working with an e commerce site, like athlete, I feel like any independent retailers just now, they have been working with these different platforms, they have been great, and so supportive through these periods, you know, some of them have discounted their permissions if you are going into discount. And, and for us now, I couldn't imagine life without the platforms, especially actually, you know, our own website does good. It's, it's, it's, you know, bringing in local sales at the moment, and obviously overseas, but the platform's are the one, you know, they've got, you know, much, they've got a bigger team, they can create very, very good content, and, and they've got the, you know, the kind of marketers behind the SEO, that can get the products out there. And I can't imagine life without any of the platforms anymore, because our bricks and mortar store is doing great, but now, we've got much more of an emphasis on on our digital stores and how we work. I'm curious as well, you know, part of an online community with the other independent boutiques, Is there like a big whatsapp group where you're gonna message each other? Well, I'm actually in a buyers group, from the independent stores. And, and we've been, there's been a few meetings where we've come together, and the different platforms. And, and it's great, because, you know, it's, it's independent retailers, buyers store owners that are going through the same pain and pleasure as you know, I do every day, every season. And it's it's just great to kind of, you know, talk about certain brands that are great to deal with, and right, it's very difficult to do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. Exactly. I love I love sitting down with, and, and that's, that's why, you know, I've taken on the sales of unseen footwear, you know, it's been great for me, because I get to sit down with the buyers and the store owners and find out what's working for them, you know, so it's kind of, it's great for me from both sides, because I understand what's what's working from a shop floor perspective. And also kind of have a bit of a and lead on what's going on from a design perspective as well. You got finger in the post down there. But listen, David, thanks so much for taking time out of the day. It's been a real pleasure talking to you and your brands. It's been fascinating learning about it. And best of luck. I hope we can get over this little COVID Mountain fairly soon and come out stronger the other side. Thanks, David. Okay, all the best. Take care. David Cullen there. Thank you, David. I'm seeing footwear why you should really check these guys out. And you can do that athlete.com check those out and also all the other brands that they've got under the umbrella there. So that's it for this week. I hope you enjoyed that. Thank you for listening. And if you do like what you hear, make sure you hit a review on your smart phone there. And if you want to get in touch remember it's info at menswear. style.co.uk In the meantime, remember it's only fashion people and you never fully dressed without a smile.