Menswear Style Podcast

August Bard Bringéus, Co-Founder of ASKET / Zero Compromise Garments

May 13, 2020 Menswear Style Episode 56
Menswear Style Podcast
August Bard Bringéus, Co-Founder of ASKET / Zero Compromise Garments
Show Notes Transcript

ASKET is an independent online-only menswear brand founded in 2015 with the mission to slow down the fashion industry and change the way we manufacture, market, and consume clothing. Based on honest production, transparent pricing, and revolutionary sizing, they're perfecting a single, permanent collection of timeless essentials and restoring the meaningfulness of the garments men use the most.

ASKET believes the world doesn’t need another fashion brand. Garments, products of delicate labour and precious resources, have lost their value. We buy more and use them less than ever - packing our wardrobes, filling landfills and fueling incinerators. Their promise is to restore the value of garments by creating meaningful essentials: A permanent collection of zero-compromise pieces, their stories uncovered and told. ASKET doesn’t design for seasons, they create for forever. When something isn’t perfect, they improve it. When something is broken, they mend it. Their definition of progress is reduced clothing ownership built on pieces that will stand the test of time, both in craftsmanship and design. The brand envisions a world free of fast consumption, a world with less clutter and less waste.


In this episode of the MenswearStyle Podcast we speak to ASKET Co-Founder, August Bard Bringéus, about the history and philosophy of his menswear brand. Our host Peter Brooker asks August about why this DTC online only business wants men to buy less clothing. They discuss August's background and how he met his business partner, Jakob Nilsson Dworsky, at business school in Sweden. They both had a passion and desire to create something from scratch that was meaningful and different. This brought them to sustainability and ethics in the clothing industry. Their solution to solve the fast fashion waste problem was to build a business model that would slow consumption and increase value within the supply chain. ASKET has a single permanent collection of classic menswear pieces, fully traceable, from farm to finish line.

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of The menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete Brooker and on this episode I'm going to be talking to August barbering gears the co founder of ask get asked get, you ask? Ask it is an independent online only menswear brand founded in 2015 with the mission to slow down the fashion industry and change the way we manufacture, market and consume clothing based on honest production, transparent pricing and revolutionary sizing. They are perfecting a single permanent collection of timeless essentials and restoring the meaningfulness of the garments that we actually use the most. So that interview coming up shortly. In the meantime, make sure you're checking out the website menswear style.co.uk that's where we put all the show notes, all the links to everything that we talked about in the show. Also you have lifestyle features, travel features, what's going on with the brands right now during this crazy time, so make sure you're checking that out. And if you want to get in touch with me here at the show, maybe you want to be a guest maybe you want to come on and talk about your brand. It's info at menswear. style.co.uk Okay, here is that interview with Auguste Bard, bring yours. Well, it's my great pleasure to introduce to the podcast co founder of ascott. Auguste Bard bring gears. How are you doing today? August. Thanks so much, Peter. I'm doing well. Thank you. Spring is blossoming here in Stockholm. So moods are high. And yeah, I can't complain. Excellent. Fantastic. So, August, please, For the uninitiated, give us a thumbnail sketch of you and the brand mascot. Sure. So yeah, I'm the co founder, cmo and CTO of ascott. And ask it is a direct to consumer online only menswear brand with the slightly paradoxical mission of helping people buy less clothing. which must be a tough sell for any investor right looking. Yeah, I think that, you know, once you look underneath the hood, and see the long term, the long term plans, which is you know, just creating, creating more value, but at at a slower pace. There's a sound case for it, you know, there's tonnes of brands and companies that have been doing good things with a strong and similar ethos before you know, Patagonia being one of them. So it's just a different way of looking at, at business and redefining the notion of a healthy and successful business away from, you know, the current main metric, which is growth, at any cost to more sound fundamentals. So take me back a little bit, please, August, where did you grow up education and kind of phase that into how you got us get off the ground? Sure. So I'm Swedish. But I'm actually also quarter German, I grew up in several countries actually. So born in southern Sweden. And then my family moved on to Germany. From there on to the United States, Washington, DC, from Washington, back to Stockholm, Sweden, Stockholm, to Vienna, Austria. And then finally, when I got to have my own, say, I decided to go back to Stockholm, to sort of settle down, find my roots and, and study business and economics. And that's kind of the starting point for ask it also, because I met my co founder, Jacob, on the first day, the very first introduction day of business school, back in 2009. And I guess that we, we found ourselves sharing a similar passion for wanting to create something, wanting to build something from scratch, not just you know, follow the traditional business, graduate career paths of banking or management consulting. We did sort of try those out a little bit, but pretty quickly found our way back to our ways back to to creating something meaningful, something different. So after a few years of working at startups Also, during our studies, I was working at klarna. A Stockholm based Globally operate an e commerce payment solution software, and Jacob working for among others solando, the e commerce giant. We had picked up on the the growing direct to consumer or DNV, Bv digital native vertical brand wave that had started in the United States with brands like Warby Parker everlane, but no boss, and saw that that could be a platform to solve the frustration that we've been feeling for a while, which was a quick personal frustration with our own wardrobes, we would look at our wardrobes and we would find that, you know, we have hundreds of pieces of clothing, I think, in Europe, in the Western world, the average wardrobe contains over 100 pieces of clothing, but you'll use only a fraction of them, I think it's it's as low as 20% of your clothing that is actually in constant use. And we found ourselves wondering why that is the case and trying to start analysing why we love and use certain garments and why others are turned out of our daily rotation very, very quickly. And are finding was that, you know, the comments that we actually use and love all the time always have the same common denominators, they're timeless in style. They're high quality, so that they actually can be worn and washed and torn. They're comfortable, and they have a great fit. Whereas the rest that 80% that are turned out of rotation very quickly, are mostly things that are bought on, on impulse. It was a trend piece, it was you know, an expensive brand that had a 70% sale and you bought it despite the colour being you know, weird or the fit not actually being your for you, like bad image, every t shirt that I bought a concert. Exactly, exactly. And I guess that has some kind of emotional value, you know, but most of the pieces that we amassed have no emotional value there. They go from being you know, this product of immense natural and human resources to waste within one use two uses three uses maximum. And, and so our idea was that, you know, we wanted to make sure that we actually maximise the use of our wardrobe, and minimise the inefficiencies and, and just have a wardrobe of comments that we actually love and use for years on end. And being you know, happier in those wardrobes, both emotionally. But of course, also economically, we spend an enormous amount of clothing that we don't end up using at the time. We, you know, this was in about 2014, when we started sketching the idea of asking before launching in 2015. And at that time, we were very concerned with what we called the impossible equation of combining quality, fit and price. So we weren't actually super concerned with you know, we I hate to use the word because it's so vague, but with sustainability, or ethics or responsibility in clothing for the simple reason that we were just average consumers at that time, we had no experience with within the apparel industry or within fashion. But as we started to sketch the solution to solve this equation of combining fit and high quality at an affordable attainable price point, we started to build a business model that actually would also have the a perfect foundation for slowing down consumption and increasing value and reducing inefficiencies and injustice in the fashion value chain. I see is interesting. And I mean, you're so bang on with emotional clothing, that the biggest mistake I've made when I was in my early 30s was to invest in clothing that I thought would mean a lot to me over the years I could never get rid of because I've made some investment and it's come on a journey with me. And now all these clothes are just hanging on that don't ever see the light of day, but then I'm calling I have that dichotomy of Well, I don't I can't throw it out. It's like, you know, culling the herd of your family. Yeah, I mean, if I ever had kids, I would just tell them that just by absolutely playing by the essentials, don't buy anything with a picture of Roger Moore on it or whatever it is that you're into, just go down the line of using it for utility and you know, just uncomfort So, yeah, I think that's kind of I'm kind of going around the houses, but you can perhaps tell me that might be the ethos or the subtext. Ask it right. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it definitely is, and I think it's, to some extent, it's about you know, a level of maturity that you reach with, you know, age and and just maturity, but to another standard is also contextual and symptomatic of change just in our society, where we are now growing much more aware of the impacts of our consumption choices. So to go back to sort of the ethos and ask of asking, and what we ended up with was, you know, to, to solve this equation of fit, quality and price, we decided to do some fundamental changes to the fashion and apparel business model. First one being abandoning seasonal collections in favour of building a single permanent collection. Because all those garments that we realised that we actually love and use over time, they've been around forever, you know, you've seen them on JFK on Marlon Brando on Steve McQueen on on on all of these icons for four decades. And so why is it so hard to just keep these pieces, you know, in the offering, and refine them and make them better over time instead of trying to reinvent them always. But the fashion industry is built on seasonal connected collections and the concept of constant renewal. It is the very fuel that drives the industry that and every part of the industry is currently still dependent on it, you need seasonal collections and constant renewal and novelty, to have a reason to speak to be featured in press press needs to have something to talk about stores needed to renew their offering to re attract customers to come back into the stores. So but the problem is that, you know, seasonal collections, and this constant renewal is basically, you know, what we in consumer electronics call designed obsolescence, the term of actually designing things to become obsolete, within a certain amount of time actually comes from fashion, we sell something and a few weeks after we say that this is no longer in trend to be socially acceptable, you need to buy this new, you know, dusty pink t shirt instead. And so we're forcing consumers to replace garments that are perfectly good. And we're fostering a mindset of you know, garments being disposable, rather than investments that they should be. But so by abandoning seasonal collections, not only do we remove an enormous pressure for constant renewal and time and resources spent on constant renewal, you know, that means that we can focus on just one timeless essential at a time perfecting a permanent collection of garments that are meant to be around forever. So there's no end to the resources that we can put in to perfecting these garments over time. It also means that we don't need the markups to be able to sell these garments at a profit, even if we have a 70% and season sale, because we will never have never have sales these garments around forever. And finally, with a permanent connection collection, instead of having you know multiple changes and styles and huge offering of styles, we can instead offer more sizes, so we can tackle the size problem and the fit problem that we were addressing. The only reason that we're used to, you know, five standard sizes, Xs to XL is because of you know, manufacturing convenience, we need to keep things simple to be able to predict, you know, sales and forecast size splits, according to demand, and you know, keep things simple, but with a permanent collection and not having you know, a deadline and the end of season breathing down your neck, we can actually offer more and better sizes that are actually you know, taking into account that people's bodies are built in different ways. And so with the permanent collection, we solve both a we avoid creating things that might become obsolete. Basically intrinsically changing people's wardrobes, you know, with the product is almost the Trojan horse, if something so good and so timeless, you won't need to replace it. And then we fix the sizing. And finally we go direct to consumer and online only to cut out you know the whole wholesale fat because essentially, right now if you go and buy your favourite brand on the high street somewhere, what you're paying for is really just a fraction of the actual craftsmanship and material behind the product. Because once that product is created, brand will mark it up by three X to sell it to a wholesaler and the wholesaler will mark it up by another three x to be able to cover the wholesalers costs sorry, ending up paying on average, nine times the production costs. And by skipping that whole wholesale step and all the physical stores, and that type of distribution going directly to the customer, we can create high quality, perfectly fitting garments at an attainable price point. And that's kind of the foundation. Nice. Well, that's pretty much as straightforward as it gets. And it's there are so many myths and misuses within the fashion world and I found this when I was running my fashion store. Why He would insist on seasonal collections in the first place, especially in the UK, when you would, it's just freezing cold 10 months of the year anyway, and then you have this tiny window, when the sun comes as are great, let's just stock up and tell everyone to buy t shirts, which will be the lowest price, you can get any margin on any clothing whatsoever. And again, when you mentioned the sizing, it would infuriate me to have this kind of block of sizing structure where we'd always order 123321. And, you know, that's like one extra small, too small for me, and I kind of fluctuate between extra small and small. And there'd be nothing in the range. For me, you know, obviously sound to the customer first, but then I get people with my frame come in and go, well, where are the smallest? Why aren't you catering? For me? It's because well, that's not how we kind of we did take dictated to by so many other parts of the industry that it kind of leaves the seller out of options in so many ways. So it's refreshing to see a different approach to that from your end anyway. So yeah, fast track a little bit, please. August, and when you're out of klarna, you've you've kind of graduated. Sorry, I might have screwed those up. But you're now thinking of setting up a basket. What's, what are the timeframes here? What dates are we looking at? Yeah, so we're looking at the end of 2014, or Jacob and I still in business school, studying for our, in our final year of our master's degree, we're starting to sketch the business plans to to set a basket basically. And then in January 2015, we finally decided to, you know, just rip the band aid off, register the corporation and force ourselves to get started with this. And just a few months afterwards, in April 2015, we launched the T shirt. I think the pitch at that time was the search for the perfect t shirt and a T shirt and 15 sizes. And we launched that actually on Kickstarter to assess the interest in, you know, solving what we at that time only knew to be a personal frustration with our wardrobes and with finding high quality, timeless, well fitting garments. And pretty quickly on we we got confirmation. So I think we were our project was funded within 18 hours. And within three weeks time, we had achieved more than four and a half times the pre orders that we needed to fund our first production because that was the challenge we didn't have any investors we didn't have our cash any cash ourselves. Remember, we were students and still studying actually. So we needed a pre order to both assess initial interest, get some first loyal customers and help you know fund our first our first production run. And and from there on in December of 2015. And the end of July, beginning of August, we launched our website with just one product, the T shirts available in four colours white grey launch dark navy and black. But in 15 sizes each and and from there on we we gradually expanded the permanent collection really one garment at a time putting all our focus on on just piece by piece, building a perfect wardrobe. And so these what fabrics are you including here and what's the vetting process are you saying well, you know, this Sea Island cotton has to be the best fabric for this this to be the lasting so what what kind of factors are being thrown? Yeah. So from the very beginning, durability was really key. You know, as a customer, particularly, you know, if you're a young student, you're used to buying things that you can kind of afford and mostly that's just the high street offering and you'll see stuff shrink and you'll see that your your T shirts pill and, and fade and we just wanted to eliminate all that and create you know, zero compromise wardrobe staple. So durability and you know, colorfastness fibre quality, we're really at the core of our material evaluation process. And when it comes to manufacturing, we didn't want to cut any corners of course. So from a quality point of view, we started out in Portugal, which has a phenomenal heritage within textile engineering, particularly within cotton in Jersey. Also shirting but particularly within within jersey which is the fabric that you normally use for t shirts and sweatshirts and hoodies. And we personally vetted the factories we visited them, because you know, we still had no clue about about the product. Supply Chain, how things actually came together. You know, even though maybe you don't think stuff comes off a conveyor belt or something, it actually, you know, requires a trip down the supply chain to understand the enormous complexity of clothing and clothing manufacturing and, and how extremely manual it is. And the vast amount of individual people working in the supply chain at every step of the process. And that was just an enormous learning phase for us. And while we started, even as we started, we realised that we needed to be transparent, we want it to be a very transparent brand, we've taken some inspiration from brands like everlane, who, you know, pivoted or coined the term radical transparency, or one of the companies that coin did. And in the beginning, that was kind of a hygiene factor for us, you know, if you're starting a brand in 2015, of course, you want to be ethical, and do it right. Or at least that's what, what we felt like. And to be transparent, we, of course, had to, you know, open the hood and explore and learn ourselves, because, again, we had no experience. And what we realised was that, you know, transparency in the very beginning was, for us, a means to manifest quality, digitally, because we were selling online only. So to explain how we were getting, you know, a, a 90 euro, or say, 70 pound t shirt, for a third of the price, we had to open up our factories and show what it actually takes to create this garment to give a sense of that craftsmanship and the quality. And so we decided to open up our factories, document and put them on our website. At the same time, that looks fantastic. I'm sorry to over talk over you. But when I was on your website earlier, this is by by far the most traceable transparent, you know, open book part of any industry or any fashion industry that I've seen. So you can go into the trials of fabric mill, the trousers sewing factory, the belt factory, there's pictures, I mean, it's just short of virtual tours, it's, it's so yeah, I mean, there's no stone unturned, and there's no lack of confidence, I think this is what's quite key. When I when I was working on e commerce, it was always you had to get the consumer to the gateway with zero friction, but you also have to give them the utmost confidence that what they're buying has come from somewhere, or you could actually see the process. You know, just and what you've done here is just basically the blueprint, I think, for what every branch should be doing with regards to their traceability. So, thanks so much. No, no, thank you, Alex. Thank you. Thank you. And, and yeah, I mean, as I was saying, this was kind of a hygiene factor for us when we started and a way to manifest quality and provide confidence in the product. And on the other spectrum, apart from opening up the factories, we decided to, you know, from the get go also open up our pricing, so not only show what goes into creating the product in terms of all the processes and the complexity in the manufacturing facilities, but actually also disclose the exact cost of labour, of manufacturing of material and of transport. So with that, we had kind of explained quality digitally, and also explained the value that you were getting, and what this product would have costed if we would sell through wholesale distribution, and that was the starting point for our work with transparency and, and traceability. But as we started to, you know, visit more and more factories, for every place we visited. It really just struck us how, how immensely complex the the creation of a garment is the garment that we take for granted and ever too often today. See as a disposable rather than the investment, it should be. And you know, after a few months, we started to sort of really dig into it and realise that you know, t shirt will create what will require 2700 litres of water to from farming all the way to get it into the hands of the customers. That's enough to keep a person alive for over four years and pared down and will require 15,000 litres of water 35 kilos of co2 and it's just just a little so be about 10 washes for my girlfriend's hair by the way. Yeah, there's a lot of things. You know, maybe 15 maybe 15 I don't know just kind of between the two Yeah, no. And I mean, it's, there's so much everything we do has an impact, right. And I think that if you try to understand, I mean, we want people and we want ourselves to be as conscious as possible to make better decisions. But at the end of the day, you can't try and fix everything right, or you're going to go crazy. So what we're trying to do now is really to fix clothing, our clothing, consumption habits, and the vast strain that they're having on people and planet. So, you know, after a few years, we kind of felt that I think this was in 2017. You know, we eventually decided that, you know, we realised that the factories that we were showing and we're visiting weren't all the factories involved, even showing, you know, the all the ones on our website, right now, there's so much more to it. There's also the sewing thread, there's the hang tags, there's the labels, there's the button factories, it is so complex. And so to set, you know, to set a better standard for understanding the complexity of garments and appreciating them better and making better decisions, we decided to introduce in 2018 full traceability, which is our internal standard, requiring us to trace our got breakdown requirements into every single component every single fibre and trace them back to the roots, and then disclose that information online on our website on each product page, as well as in a very physical and non high tech label directly in the garment. So where are they normally, you know, the care label is there's also a full traceability label. So even if you don't care about this, when you sort of, you know, you wash your first ask a T shirt, or wash your first estimate for the first time, you will see this and and whether or not you're particularly interested in it. Our hope is that it will nudge us into more awareness of what it takes to create our clothing and so that the next time you buy a piece of clothing, maybe not from us, you will ask yourself, you know, is made in Bangladesh, made in Romania Made in Italy, really the full story and is the price that I'm paying, particularly in, you know, on the high street, really fair and realistic, considering what I've learned from from what it takes to create ask its products. And so this was really the pivotal moment for us when we launched this undertaking to get our entire product line to 100%. traceability and quite unprecedented in the fashion industry. And August has this hadn't any any effect on your contemporaries? The reason I asked this, I mean, I see a lot of crowdfunding and Kickstarter campaigns, I think watches were a huge thing that started this. And you know, kind of cutting out the middleman. And then for Crikey, when that first started happening, for the likes of the luxury watch market have really got a look over their shoulders, because obviously, their prices are completely riding the wave of their brand name. And once people you can pump out these watches of, you know, not similar quality. But yeah, there's such a gulf in what you can actually take as a slice. Yeah. Do you think other brands are you looking around now and going, Oh, these guys are doing something similar to us or this, this has changed, I can see that we've made a difference over here, because these guys are now implementing the same strategy. Have you noticed anything like that? With regards to traceability and transparency, specifically, or the direct to consumer model? Both please? Hmm. So yeah, I think, I mean, we've seen the direct to consumer model, and sort of the formerly called affordable luxury, which is now such a, you know, watered down term. But but we've seen that concept multiply across various sectors and verticals, and also within the fashion industry. So I think that that's definitely a a mega trend. And we know from the bigger brands also that they increasingly are relying on their own channels, maybe not in the, you know, altruistic way, with it with, you know, an altruistic motive to actually be able to lower prices and make quality more attainable. But simply because they have higher margins in their own channels. So you know, we have big brands like Nike that are increasingly shutting down their wholesale channels because they're so powerful that they can redirect customers directly to themselves where they earn more money. But there's also a wave of micro brands and small You know, creative brands that strive for change that are deploying this model in order to create better value and have more control and responsibility over the entire value chain. And I think that's, that's a positive development. Definitely worth it regards to transparency and traceability. I think that we were among the first to do this. And if we go back to sort of 2015, when we started reading 2018, when we launched full traceability as a concept, the fashion industry had been under scrutiny for some time, mainly due to unethical working conditions. You know, we had sweatshop stories in the 90s already in the 80s. Eventually, the Rana Plaza building collapse in 2013, that killed almost 1200, factory workers working for Western High Street brands. And that really sort of raised concerns about the working conditions that are, you know, comparable to slavery in some developing countries, where Western brands have sought to place their production to be competitive, price wise. But the tragedy is that, you know, it really took until 2018 2019, to really start a movement of global awareness with regards to the impact of clothing, consumption and production. And now it's even now it's not actually so much about the, the working conditions, but much more about the environmental impact of fashion, which is absolutely crucial also, and extremely important. But, but it is ironic that, you know, not until climate change became real, and you know, you and I can actually feel that it's getting warmer every summer and we're reading about, you know, a wildfires, even in Sweden, which is just crazy, not until we, in our, you know, safe places here in the Western world, in developed economies start to feel the heat, do we actually consider thinking about the impact of our consumption choices? So while it is great, that transparency and and, and ethics and the climate change impacts of the clothing industry, is now really a major topic. It is, you know, if I'm being cynical, it is dark that it really had to go this far until this became a global topic and, and brands across the world actually tried to do something about it. And even so, right now, you know, there is Excuse My French is shitstorm of greenwashing going on because you know, not everyone is communicating and talking about sustainability. Purely altruistically. There is obviously a lot of money to be made in, in trying to position yourselves yourself favourably. Given that consumer demand is now asking for more ethical products. Interesting. Yep, I agree. I mean, I remember when that factory folded in on itself. And I also remember the Stacey Dooley documentary. I think that was last year, I think she did something similar, where she was going around the high street, stopping people on the streets and telling them, the T shirt they're wearing and then behind her was like these kegs, like you saying a 200,000 gallons of water to wash one single t shirt. And so she did this sort of huge guerilla marketing around that. And then, you know, you have David Attenborough's like dying whale with the plastic in the mouth and all of a sudden started really reflecting on what they're doing and the carbon footprint they're having. I mean, I end up with it fashion is only second to oil for being the biggest Whirlpool. Yeah, you know, and you put your polyester jumper on landfill that's going to outlive you. That's not gonna disintegrate over time. So, it is certainly a time for people to be more aware. Yeah, let's August it's been wonderful talking to you. Thanks so much, again, for taking time out of the day. The website, ask it.com that's a s k e t.com. What we got coming out in terms of what we got to look forward to. Yeah. So um, so as I just mentioned, you know, we introduced full traceability two years ago. And I think a lot of a lot of people associate us with being you know, a sustainable brand. But sustainability really isn't that easy and traceability and knowing where your garments actually from is not the same thing as garments being sustainable or having a low environmental footprint. So what we're doing now is that now that we know exactly where our garments come from down to the last, you know, fibre and button, we're starting to measure the impact of our garments. Because with all the certifications, and you know, green labels and whatnot going out, right now, it is really, really, really tough for consumers and for brands to make the right choices. So what we want to do is to set you know, a new standard in terms of transparency, which is actually being accountable for our impact and being able to disclose our impact, you know, very frankly, this amount of water, this amount of co2, this amount of energy goes into creating this garment. And from there on, really being able to optimise our own supply chain decarbonize it as far as possible. And then make sure that we maximise the lifetime of our garments, and you know, reduce the relative impact per use of these garments. So it's a huge undertaking, and it's going to take us a few more years to get there. But that's what we're currently working on to really provide a zero compromise wardrobe. Wilson, and you're fighting the good fight. Thanks so much August, take care of yourself out there. Again, the website, ask it.com the place to go and the social channels as well. Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, you can follow them just type in ask get into your smartphone there and they should come up and you can have a look at the product firsthand. Again, thanks. Hello. Thanks for asking. Thanks, Augustus. Say thanks so much, Peter, for the opportunity. pleasure. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you, Olga. Such an insightful interview. Those are my favourite ones where the clever people do the talking. That's it for me. Well, I should say thank you for listening and taking part for sharing and liking and reviewing on iTunes. It does mean a lot to us. And stay safe and remember, it's only fashion people and you're never fully dressed without a smile.

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