Menswear Style Podcast

Asher Clark, Design Director at Vivobarefoot / Minimalist Running Shoe

November 27, 2019 Menswear Style Episode 42
Menswear Style Podcast
Asher Clark, Design Director at Vivobarefoot / Minimalist Running Shoe
Show Notes Transcript

Vivobarefoot is a minimalist running shoe company. Their technology is aimed at offering the optimum biomechanics and posture commonly associated with walking barefoot and barefoot running and advocated within the barefoot movement and barefoot running community. It has been described as "as close to going barefoot in the city as you can get." Vivobarefoot was set up by Galahad and Asher Clark, two cousins from the famous Clarks dynasty, and offers barefoot shoes for people looking to reconnect with the ground below them. Menswear Style's Peter Brooker interviews Asher about the story of where it all started for the brand, and gains insights into how regular footwear can be very bad for our posture and joints. Vivobarefoot combat this with a thin, wide and flexible minimalist shoes which are widely popular among the barefoot/natural running communities.

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of The menswear style podcast. I'm your host Pete Brooker and in this episode I will be talking with design director for vivo barefoot Asher Clarke. vivo barefoot is a minimalist running shoe company. Their technology invented by Tim Brennan and developed by British shoe company Terra planner is aimed at offering the optimum biomechanics and posture commonly associated with walking barefoot and barefoot running and advocated within the Barefoot movement and barefoot running community. It has been described as close to going barefoot in the city as you can get. I'll be asking Asher all about the concept of the brand. What are the health benefits and the challenge of making shoes that people will want to wear and by that interview coming up first, if you're not checked out our website, menswear style.co.uk that's where you'll find all the latest articles pertaining to fashion trends releases. There's also competitions, giveaways and gifting ideas, etc. We are on menswear style on the social if you punch in menswear style into the App Store, download the app and we'll notify you when new posts go live. Lastly, if you want to get in touch with the show, maybe you want to be a guest it's info at menswear. style.co.uk Okay, here is that interview with Asher Clark, design director for vivo Beth it's my great pleasure to introduce to the podcast Asher Clark, design director for vivo barefoot, very jet lagged Ashley Clark Hayden today I should. Um, I like you'd like you said, a little bit jet lagged. But I'm very well thank you. And thanks for having me on your podcast this morning. No till so where have you flown in from today? I Well, it's somewhat complicated. We I flew to I flew to China, where we've just finished moving some of our production from there to Vietnam. I then flew to Addis Ababa, which is the capital of Ethiopia, where we've got a factory that we've built in partnership with a leather tannery called pit odds, a very beautiful kind of social enterprise and small shoe factory, which we're scaling, which is very exciting. Then I flew to Vietnam, which is our primary kind of sourcing hub for the vivo shoes for a few days, then back to China, where I picked up my family and we finally relocated back to the UK where we landed on Saturday morning, so Well, me and me and my Chinese squad are finally out of I say finally out of China. It's been very good to me and I and I miss it if I'm honest. But um, we're now living in our house in stone union. So yeah, it's been it's been a colourful trip. Nice. I'll probably get to that in a sec as to why you've moved from China to Vietnam. But maybe we can dial it back and just start with we'll start with you Asher for for a start. If you could tell us maybe a bit about yourself. You You studied at London College of fashion. Did you get the idea for vivo barefoot whilst you're there and developing the product there? or How did it come about? Well, if I'm honest, it wasn't it. The genesis of that idea wasn't from me If you like it, we'll get into detail about it. It's obviously the vivo barefoot or minimal shoes is the opposite of 99% of shoes that are sold today and actually through through the course of time over the last couple hundred years there have been various people that have challenged the shoe shaped kind of hedge money with the with this this foot shaped idea but vivo Bertha was was conceived by a young guy at the time called Tim Brennan. He was at the world college studying design. He's a he was really into tennis, and his dad was an Alexander Technique teacher. And he kept twisting his ankle in his night playing you can cut the night beard out in his trainers. Like a bee ballybofey. Yeah, he and his trainers playing tennis. And and he Yeah, so he kept twisting his ankle and, and also he was suffering from a bad back. So whenever he went to he went went to the Alexander Technique, training which is basically fundamentally about posture and obviously you take your shoes off and it's about alignment and it starts with you know, it starts with the feet and all the way up through the kinetic chain etc. And every time he left his Alexander Technique session and put on his trainers, something felt wrong, right, everything was aligned and nice without shoes on. And then he put his trainers on and walk out the door. So So yeah, he was he was kind of twisting over these high kind of thick cushioned soles and one day SAT, he sat down with his shoes and he took a bread knife. This is this is a classic kind of a you know, Tinker Hatfield Nike type story, but he took a bread knife to his to his to his trainers, mentioned no brands, took the soles off stitched, these roughly cut out bits of tennis racket covered at the bottom of the shoes. And you could say those were the first vivos that were ever made. So it was it was. And then he ended up doing his final year project where he created some pretty rudimentary foot shaped shoes with very thin soles, after he kind of did some further research into it. And he then met my cousin in around 2002. They made some kind of funny shoes at the time, I was just graduating and there were these funny white shoes with zip off souls at the time. And, and because they were out so quick. And to cut a long story short, I was I was at a design company and I was designing for different brands. And as time went on, Tim Tim kind of left and went off to do his own thing. And we started designing some shoes together. And the idea there was we started to believe more and more and like this is the only way to make shoes. And the challenge then was how do we make them look kind of, you know, appealing shoes that we wanted to wear. So that's that's really how it all started from a vivo perspective. Right? Okay. So this, to me, when I when I started doing some research into the brand, and obviously heard of the brand, but hadn't really gone into the weeds with it and found out exactly what it is. It does sound like a product that takes a lot of time to research, it's not something that you can just go let's make a shoe brand. And then six months later, here are the designs. Eight months later, it's on the shelves. I mean, there must have been, like you say there was a there was already ideas going around of how this shoe should look. So how long the process from getting this product and the concept and and maybe we can talk about some of the obstacles that you met to overcome them. Yeah, no, I mean, it's a very good point. And it's a challenge. It's not really podcast friendly, because vivo is is a sort of brand where or type of challenge or product where you don't just wake up one morning and go right, she's need to be like this, and this is how you make them. And this is how we do it. It definitely kind of happened over quite a long period of time. So if you think vivo was conceived in 2002, on a tennis court in West London, and but but you know, it really didn't kind of happen until properly until 2010. So 2010, I would say was is a key kind of first tipping point in this whole in the birther thing where Chris McDougall came out with a New York Times bestseller actually is a book called Born to Run, which was he was an investigative journalist at the time, and he was suffering from back pain and, and, and and various running injuries. And he was told that he can run but she found her postures and he ended up kind of he ended up in in he ended up going on this incredible journey and in the in the into the Copper Canyon and Matt the Tamar a tribe and a guy called Beth at TED and it was this amazing inspirational journey about bathroom. And so that was the kind of emotional tipping point if you like in the industry and and then a gentleman called Professor Dan Lieberman from from Harvard. And he was he released a paper it was the kind of persistent running hypothesis where he proposed that humans are basically Born to Run. So we're, we're unique, we're unique in that we can sweat to cool ourselves down and and we can, we can run really long distances, a kind of medium pace, and ultimately tie the animal out. So the theory is, is that we would that humans actually are born to run and we can run really long distances pretty comfortably. animals can't do it in the same way. And we would we would hunt in packs. And it was called persistent hunting. So that was really and then a lot of the science around that was linking kind of running form and shoes to injury and to our fundamental kind of biomechanics and biology. So, so again, this isn't very podcast. Friendly as you as you laid out, but yeah, so there you've got Dan Lieberman's kind of the scientific piece, the rational piece, the emotional piece that was that was born to run. And then that was at the same time where we Galahad and I really started focusing on vivo and we released a shoe a running shoe, a really cool water shoe in this kind of running sandal and, and, you know, the business kind of all eyes were on betha and everyone was like, let's throw our shoes out the window. And that's when five fingers really took off. You know, the funny. Yep, shoes, like gloves for your toes. Yes, that was that was like the poster child if you like at that moment, and that's really when it happened for us. So that's when we weren't right this this is really the only way we can make shoes. And and it all started. Amazing. Maybe you can dispel a rumour that Christopher McDougall did he get sued by a load of people that then threw their shoes away and did marathons and picked up loads of injuries. So I kind of hearing Chinese whispers on that one. But that's no, but I think what you're referring to I might be wrong, go I'm pretty sure what you're referring to is is is V Brown, five fingers. Uh huh. There are a few brands during a time v. Brown five fingers were had that shoe which actually wasn't was designed for kayaking. And then you and then New Balance had New Balance minimus, which is a minimal offering. Nike obviously had Nike Free, which we can talk about later. And we were there as well. But the, what they got sued for is that they were claiming shoe benefits. So if if you wear this shoe, it will sort your posture out and you're run naturally, blah, blah, blah, yeah. Which is, which is not true, right. And unfortunately, no shear is a magic shoe and particularly, you know, a Bassett shoe, or all a good barefoot shoe will do is is, you know is is mimic and allow kind of natural movement in your feet. But the actual the technique and the transition, unfortunately is, is a bit more complicated than buying the shoe. So in this Yeah, so people kind of read the book, and we're like, wow, nature is going to save us they threw their shoes away, put on these barefoot shoes and went off running and, and, and some of them suffered injury which, which, which, which, frankly, will happen to a lot of people because if you imagine you've been wearing padded supportive shoes for the majority of your life, your feet become kind of weak and atrophy. There are other issues, there are other things that also that happened, but if you then just run out and start pounding the pavement, as you normally would and then then things happen. You also you touched upon the the running element and how like As humans, we kind of hardwired even, I guess from the caveman days of going out and running, you know, hunting prey, etc. It does feel like this shoe in particular is taking us back to nature in a way. Is there a narrative around that? Yeah, no, I mean, totally, there is I mean, if I'm if I'm honest, the the early the first narrative, if you like, was very linked to running and technique and injury, which which when we started we were like, you know, we were like shit, this is all you can beat that out. So we were like, this is um, you know, this actually is bigger than us and it's bigger than shoes. This is a kind of an education piece where we need to kind of, you know, invest heavily in like how to use the shear and correct running form etc. But the bigger narrative, which we came to understand is exactly like what you're saying is that is that you know, millions of years of evolution, that human beings are hardwired, to be connected to nature, right to you know, being in nature is our kind of natural habitat. And, and we're starting to realise that as human beings in general is that is that, you know, over the since the Industrial Revolution, we've kind of emancipate ourselves from nature and almost tried to master it in some ways and we're living in concrete boxes, spending less time there and synthesise light in synthesise food, leading stressful lives and you know, and frankly speaking, you know, people in planetary health is suffering as a result. Yeah. So so there is a big kind of 360 healthy people healthy planet, kind of well being, peace, of which feet are the foundation of that for us. So, you know, healthy feet are the foundation of healthy movement, which you know, connects us in a pretty visceral way. Since orally to the planet, yeah. And, and, and everything falls off that and and the definition of sustainability, you know, encompasses that as well. So yeah, there is a kind of reconnection if you like, piece at play there, which is also, it's a significant kind of macro idea that that, that that's getting a lot of airtime at the moment, actually, maybe I can just tell you something. And this is perhaps going to say something more about me than it is about the products. But sure, I was walking down the street with the girlfriend the other day and saw a gentleman coming towards me wearing no shoes. And yet it's kind of weird, primal instinct to usher my girlfriend away, like walk on the other side, and I'll kind of go towards him. And it's weird. Now that I'm thinking about it. But that's the impulses. There's something that I see is something off where a gentleman is not wearing any shoes on the street. yet. Now we're now we're coming back to the science of Well, actually, this is much better for you. So I guess my last question is, how do we get that message across? Is it a case of going into schools? Is it a case of just you know, creating more awareness? How do you approach it? Yeah, no, I mean, that is that is the million dollar question, frankly, a multi billion dollar question because because, you know, since since, you know, the early 70s, when Bill Bauman and Phil Knight put a little bit of cushioning under their running slap, you know, the whole trainer industry followed suit, which was all about padding support. Toe spring under fancy underfoot technology, right? We're trying to say, Well, hold on a minute, just because it's normal, doesn't mean it's natural. Yeah, right. So so so it's a huge first is a huge, it was a very expensive, if you want to look, think of it in monetary terms, kind of customer acquisition, because and some people have a kind of easier propensity towards it, and others. So like, if you're, if you're an urban dwelling kind of assets wearing kind of runner, then you're far harder target. If you know, to use crew terms, then then a kind of, I don't know, like, an someone that spends a lot of time outdoors in nature living in Sweden, for example, right. And but it's a big first things like when you put on a shoe, you look down and you look at that silhouette, and you're used to seeing something symmetrical, because that's how shoes look. And then you kind of look at the kind of side profile and you want the kind of that ski sled, kind of cushioned, technical outsole you know, and if your shoe has neither of those things, then you know, your your cognitive dissonance or your kind of your, your template for normality is is seriously wobbled. Yeah. If you've got a flat shoe where suddenly you can feel the ground and you've got room in the toe box, and you look down and it's kind of looked very wide for you. You know, that's that you're asking someone you know, you're asking a lot of someone right? Yeah. So yeah, does answer your question. It does. Yes. So I'm just listening. I'm fascinated. I'm just all there all the time. I'm trying to picture this with like a business head, do you go right, let's, let's aim it for the people that you know, your Urban asix wearers. And let's try and convert these guys, because there's a market there already, they're already running, or you've got the people on the other side of the fence, you know, a bit more willing and liberal and perhaps, you know, at one with nature, you know, this would be perfect fit for them. Like just where your demographic would be and where you'd actually point your marketing. In terms of demographic we can we call them? Well, the known name is they're called low has, which is people that have a lifestyle of health and sustainability, which is a massive growing mindset across multiple demographics now like it and frankly, it's great, right? Because the planet needs people that are questioning their choices, in terms of people and Planetary health. And, and it's happening so the target is people that are kind of looking for those wellbeing upgrades if you like, right, but they don't really they don't know that there's they have a shoe problem. Do you mean that kind of maybe that they might be running a lot, you know, we all started well, not all of us but most you know, we all started realising about organic food and freshly sourced x y and Zed and people now talking about sleep and switching off and natural exercise etc, etc. So so so vivo shoes are the plug into that from a from a product perspective right from Earth, but from a from An actual brand perspective that, that we, we when we now articulating our brand as, as, as going forward is that we aim to create regenerative footwear and experiences that literally bring us closer to nature. Right? So, oh, so we want to, you know, we want to inspire people to have, you know, rich experiences that are centred around getting out and in touch with nature more. And, and shoes are going to be part of that. So there's, there's going to be an experiential piece. We're trying to use that. So So going back to 2010 2010 was the was the best that movement, and I like to think that now is the kind of well being movement. And, and that which from a from a health and sustainability and product point of view, where we are trying, we're gonna lead lead the charge, basically, what kind of health benefits would people be likely to see, say over like a 30 day period, then maybe longevity wise, six months to a year, etc? Yeah, so. So yeah, look, that the shoes, there's no magic, kind of pixie dust in the shoes, or, literally, all we're trying to do is make as little shoe as possible. And that that kind of narrative is kind of kind of a self fulfilling piece. Because the less you we make the more natural than, you know, the the less you gets in the way of your feet moving. And the way you move, and then the less materials and stuff we use, so the healthier it is for the planet. Yeah, so the benefits that you're going to get kind of somewhat depend in turn over a period of time on on, you know, where you were, you know, the state of your hardware. So for example, it starts with your feet. And if you've been wearing shoes for a long time, like the majority of us, then shoes with arch support, and heel support and toe spring, negate the natural movement in your feet, so your feet start to atrophy. So you've got lots of amazing intrinsic muscles in your feet and your your toe alignment or needs to be right and you've got a big kind of spring up the back of your car primarily in in your arch. That if you have Hill, Hill lift kind of negates that function. So the first thing that happens is that your feet are suddenly kind of released from the plaster cast, if you like, right. And the key thing we started talking about running but with V with wearing barefoot shoes, actually, it starts with standing. So you need to be you need to kind of take it slow, you know, the classic saying you got to walk before you can run, which is a bit counterintuitive, particularly if you're a runner. So, so yeah, standing is a skill. Going back to the Alexander Technique piece. So my advice in terms of the health benefits, the advice would be is, you know, putting vivos on is like taking your shoes off at the end of a long day. Except you have that for the whole day. So if you're at work, try and get a standing desk and start by just standing you know, push your hips forward, straighten your shoulders, imagine a nice straight line down through to your feet and and plot your big toe your key kind of anchor into the ground and just feel you know your feet as your kind of your anchor and base of support first. Yeah, start walking a lot and and your feet will probably ache a little bit in the same way that your body does if you go to the gym for the first time in six months. Yeah. And so that the health benefits is really kind of unlocking your natural potential. And and then there is a handful of kind of exercises and progression read pieces to kind of get you all the way into kind of doing absolutely everything running movement, and never looking back and to cushion choose again. Allison, I can't wait since the budget allows get me a pair of at least hiking shoes, I think because I'm going back to a memory I had last year when my girlfriend and I were in a man. And we were doing a lot of being a lot of valleys and gorges. And there were points where we had to take our shoes off because they'd be streams and rivers etc. Yeah, if you could see me back there. Nasha just kind of on my tiptoes are just gonna be really wincing it just because I'm walking on things that are foreign almost to my souls. Yeah, I had to get onto my bed. Unlike a foot of war and just kind of weighed like a turtle, just to get into the streets, so painful for my feet. Yeah, all the time, I'm looking at my guide and barefoot and he's hiking and he's doing everything without any shoes. Like Well, that's, that's almost really masculine in my eyes that you can actually do something like that. I don't know if that's the right word, but in my mind, because I'm there on my belly just doing like, the front crawl foot water, I think like, but there's nothing more less sexy looking at what I'm doing compared to what this dude's doing over here. Sure. Anyway, I digress. No, I mean, it's a very, it's a very good point, honestly. Because like, you know, I get the insight there, I think is that, you know, where, you know, we're leading increasingly kind of set it tree, kind of cushion lifestyles. Yeah. And, and, and like you said, kind of, you know, just having your feet in that stream felt, you know, foreign to you, but, but, you know, you're the really, really key thing that I don't think we've touched on is that your feet have the same amount of nerve endings in as your hands, right, and your hands are made to feel, and your feet are made to fill. So all of that all of that sensory input is, is there for a reason, right? So your brain can articulate where your feet are, and how and ultimately where to put your limbs and how to move in an efficient and injury free manner. Yeah, so suddenly, your feet that kind of haven't felt the real world, probably since you were a child, maybe or I don't know, but or when you were last on the beach. That's about right. We're exposed to this full on sensory experience. And it was just bananas. Yeah. Right. It was, it was crazy. And it was a real eye opener. For me. It's something that I'm going to be looking more into. I mean, I've caught some reviews on YouTube. And everyone was saying, Well, now I know where my feet are after wearing these products. And someone was saying like, I don't ever stub my toe anymore. I just had more of a conscious awareness of where my feet are going. kind of leads me to another question. This seems like a perfect product for boxes. I've also done some boxing in my time. And I know boxing is all about footwork. Now knowing where your feet are and how to plant your feet and everything that seems like a seems like a product is tailor made for that sport. Before about that more. Well, that's another interest. That's another really good point, honestly, is that there are certain sports like boxing, which is all forfor and all linked to the kinetic chain that the power comes up through your feet and into your into your body weight. Not the power of the punch doesn't come from your arm, per se. Yeah. It's the same in Kung Fu. Right? And most martial arts it's the same in gymnastics where the last thing you'd be thinking about is putting on a pair of shoes to do any of those right because it's so linked to to feeling the ground. I mean, of course in boxing you do put on shoes, but there for the most part very thin forepart very thin outsole sometimes in a bit of a hill nest. Have we thought about boxing and that kind of stuff? I mean, yeah, we've we've thought about it and, and dabbled in it a little bit in the past, but that we're just we're really trying to focus and we make outdoor, active and every day and some of our active shoes, you can absolutely do boxercise and even boxing in which which a lot of people do, right. So yeah. Yeah, well, it's a very interesting point you just bought up there? Well, it's I mean, there's gonna be quite a few products I think I'll actually have to start investing in for different purposes, like at the hiking, a nice pair of dress shoes and also, you know, getting something for a niche sport. So it has the brand now got to a stage where it more or less runs itself. I mean, they say it's been in the pipeline in the head almost since 2002. They fleshed out more in 2010. Now a decade later, how much more work Have you got to do? Or is it a constant moving beast? No, I mean, if I'm honest, like it's the year we just had is the most I say this every year is the most intense year and we've got kind of we in many ways you feel like we've only just begun we've we've kind of re articulated the brand with real focus around the next five years. Healthy brand healthy community healthy planet and and the kind of the definition of sustainability being around kind of, you know, people and planet and rather than making things that are sustainable, I not causing it or striving to make things that don't cause harm. The real goal is is to have a business that is regenerative, that that has a positive net impact on the planet rather than rather than just reducing its negative impact. So, you know, the truth is, we've got a long way to go, but we're investing very heavily in in that sustainability mission, although we don't really like to use the word sustainability. And a friend of mine said to me the other day, that kind of is a funny word sustainability, because if someone said kind of, how's your marriage, you wouldn't say it's sustainable, you know, just about bearable. It's just about Chica just about bearable. It's kind of it's not positive. And it's not, you know, it's not that negative. It's on its last legs, but I don't want to throw it away. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, we've got you know, we we really have lofty ambitions to be the, you know, the best place in the world to work to make the best shoes on the planet, which the definition of terms happens to be at their best and net positive. And, and we're going to start to deliver incredible kind of movement, moving kind of do lecture type experiences that really kind of amplify the the Healthy People healthy planet kind of activist vibe that we think is important for the world today. Great. And, you know, we haven't even mentioned some of the sustainable stuff going on in the, in the product itself. I know that you're trying to get all of the products assignable by the year 2021. Or we've got 90% on the way to that go, etc. Maybe a conversation for another time. But check out the shoes vivo barefoot.com is the place to go. And while you're there, why don't you check out all the reviews that are on trustpilot over 4000 reviews coming in at like 4.5 out of five it's insane. People are loving the shoes is just a great response to these. And and if you're London based then there's this concept store in seven days. I believe. That's correct. Yeah, there's in London. $7. Yeah. Take a look down there. Asher, thanks so much for coming on. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Not at all. Listen, thank you very much for taking the time. And you know, like I said it some of it wasn't isn't too podcast friendly. But I hope you guys enjoy it. And I look forward to speaking to you soon. Absolutely. Now. Take care yourself. Thank you. Bye bye. Cheers. Bye now. Asher Clark, they're from vivo barefoot. That website once again is vivo. barefoot.co.uk. Thank you, Asher for coming on the show. Thank you, audience for listening. We are now coming into our fourth year as a podcast. We appreciate you joining us sharing, telling a friend and leaving your kind reviews on iTunes. Until next time, I'm Peter Drucker and remember, it's only fashion people and you're never fully dressed without a smile.

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